Did the Red Special essentially have two 13k humbuckers most of the time?

[AmpegV4]

I know that seems like a strange question, but bear with me... consider that (as best I can find) Brian May's two most-used settings were bridge+middle in series and neck+middle in series. Because the middle was out of phase, it provided hum-rejection. So what essentially is happening is a twin coil bridge and neck pickup (each like a standard humbucker) with one of the coils 3-4 inches away instead of right next to the other coil.


Ans since these Burns single coil pickups were about 6.5k each... by wiring them in series, these two most common settings were providing 13k of impedence. So in these settings, the Red Special is almost like a twin-humbucker guitar with hot (13k) pickups? (NOT both humbuckers on at the same time though)

 

[beaubrummels]

Re: Did the Red Special essentially have two 13k humbuckers most of the time?

Probably yeah

 

[Demanic]

Re: Did the Red Special essentially have two 13k humbuckers most of the time?

Didn't someone coin the phrase "slutbucker" for this sort of arraignment? Or something similar?

Sent from my MotoE2(4G-LTE) using Tapatalk

 

[AlexR]

Re: Did the Red Special essentially have two 13k humbuckers most of the time?

A lot of the time the tones were series out of phase. So its not really like having a 13k humbucker.

 

[allbutromeo]

Re: Did the Red Special essentially have two 13k humbuckers most of the time?

Typically it was Bridge and middle in phase and neck and middle out of phase, so yes assuming all three pickups have the same DCR this would be the case. However I know that he had the pickups rewound at least once, that was when the middle was wound RWRP, so Im not positive the DCR is the same for all three.

 

[AlexR]

Re: Did the Red Special essentially have two 13k humbuckers most of the time?

^ Rewound....when??

I know when that Aussie guy did some work on the guitar they were repotted, but I've never heard a story about the rewinding.

 

[Myaccount876]

Re: Did the Red Special essentially have two 13k humbuckers most of the time?

The RWRP pickup is actually the bridge pickup - this gives hum-cancelling in his two favorite positions: Bridge + Middle and Middle + Neck out of phase. He says so himself in his Rig Rundown. He also noted that all three pickups are different winds - he rewound the stock pickups himself as a young lad as he was building the guitar. Two single coils in series don't necessarily sound like a humbucker either - the coils are not only more mismatched than a usual humbucker, but they are also relatively far apart - capturing completely different nodes under the strings.

That, and the DCR really has nothing to do with the pickup's sound - in regards to both conventional pickups and the Burns Tri-Sonics. The DCR only gives a reading of how much copper is on the bobbin, and that is affected by wire gauge - it's really a useless measurement by itself, as pickups are inductors. An inductance reading (Henries) would be a lot more useful. Judging the results of an inductor based upon its DC resistance is like judging how fast a vehicle is on brake horsepower alone - it's meaningless without context (is it 430 bhp on a Mustang GT or 430 bhp on a big rig? What's the peak torque at what RPM? etc). Two pickups with different magnets, different wind patterns/tension, different wire gauge, but with the same DCR won't sound even close to each other. Now in regards to the Burns Tri-Sonics, their construction is completely different from any other production pickup. They are essentially a ceramic bar magnet (the originals didn't use the modern Ceramic 8 magnet we use today - the original composition is no longer available) with a paper bobbin containing the wind stuffed into the casing, around the magnet. Then the assembly is covered, and May impregnated his pickups with epoxy to eliminate microphonics. Very different, and nothing can replicate it.

 

[AmpegV4]

Re: Did the Red Special essentially have two 13k humbuckers most of the time?

Myaccount876, thanks for that great description. Because the bridge pickup is RWRP does he usually play the bridge + middle (in series) combo with the selector switch set to "in phase"? And then he just gets hum-rejection with the middle + neck (in series) combo by setting the switch to "out of phase" ??

I had seen a webpage of a small company that was making Tri Sonics to original specs and even claimed to have the original winding machine. Are they still in business?

I was fortunate enough to have seen Queen back in the day and May's live sound was HEAVY. To anyone who owns a Red Special replica.... how does the bridge + middle (in series) combo sound compare to a typical LesPaul bridge pickup in terms of low end and mid-range?

 

[allbutromeo]

Re: Did the Red Special essentially have two 13k humbuckers most of the time?

The RWRP pickup is actually the bridge pickup - this gives hum-cancelling in his two favorite positions: Bridge + Middle and Middle + Neck out of phase. He says so himself in his Rig Rundown. He also noted that all three pickups are different winds - he rewound the stock pickups himself as a young lad as he was building the guitar. Two single coils in series don't necessarily sound like a humbucker either - the coils are not only more mismatched than a usual humbucker, but they are also relatively far apart - capturing completely different nodes under the strings.

Thanks for clearing that up. I knew one was RWRP I didn't remember the part where he said it was the bridge so just assumed middle.

 

[Myaccount876]

Re: Did the Red Special essentially have two 13k humbuckers most of the time?

Myaccount876, thanks for that great description. Because the bridge pickup is RWRP does he usually play the bridge + middle (in series) combo with the selector switch set to "in phase"? And then he just gets hum-rejection with the middle + neck (in series) combo by setting the switch to "out of phase" ??

I had seen a webpage of a small company that was making Tri Sonics to original specs and even claimed to have the original winding machine. Are they still in business?

I was fortunate enough to have seen Queen back in the day and May's live sound was HEAVY. To anyone who owns a Red Special replica.... how does the bridge + middle (in series) combo sound compare to a typical LesPaul bridge pickup in terms of low end and mid-range?

Yep, B+M in phase and M+N out of phase. Sometimes M+N in phase for a real bassy sound.

usually single coils in series are darker than humbuckers, and that's the case with May, but it isn't too dark - because of the unique pickups, six-pence as a plectrum, treble booster, and AC30. He has a lot of low mids (the guitar being a semi-hollow body coupled with the 24" scale length also gives a lot of depth/warmth to each note) and a smooth saturated sound - that's partially what makes it sound so heavy while retaining definition. Having John Deacon on bass also contributes to a heavy sound. Another interesting thing about May's sound is his attack - especially on leads - where he really has a light touch but digs in enoug to make the string almost kind of snap back after being picked to really make the notes scream.

 

[AmpegV4]

Re: Did the Red Special essentially have two 13k humbuckers most of the time?

Good point... yea its the whole signal chain as well as the arrangements of the songs that all contributes to the heaviosity. Having single coils in series probably is a big part of it though.

At this point in 2016, who's Tri Sonics does anyone recommend?

 

[Myaccount876]

Re: Did the Red Special essentially have two 13k humbuckers most of the time?

Probably his own signature tri sonics: http://www.burnsguitars.com/brianmaytrisonicpickups.php

https://www.allparts.com/PU-6290-010-Burns-Brian-May-Tri-Sonic-Pickups_p_3109.html

i know DiMarzio for a short while (I think the '90s) had a signature Brian May set for his Red Special copies, but it was short lived as May thought they weren't that good.

 

[TroyBaer]

Re: Did the Red Special essentially have two 13k humbuckers most of the time?

I know that seems like a strange question, but bear with me... consider that (as best I can find) Brian May's two most-used settings were bridge+middle in series and neck+middle in series. Because the middle was out of phase, it provided hum-rejection. So what essentially is happening is a twin coil bridge and neck pickup (each like a standard humbucker) with one of the coils 3-4 inches away instead of right next to the other coil.


Ans since these Burns single coil pickups were about 6.5k each... by wiring them in series, these two most common settings were providing 13k of impedence. So in these settings, the Red Special is almost like a twin-humbucker guitar with hot (13k) pickups? (NOT both humbuckers on at the same time though)

Sort of, but not really. The Tri-sonics individually sound closer to P90s than Fender-style single coils or the separate coils in a humbucker. The middle+bridge in-phase position on the Red Special is thicker and twangier than any bridge humbucker I've ever heard, as it's dominated by the sound of the middle pickup; the bridge pickup mostly adds some treble. Also, Dr. May tends to use the neck+middle position out of phase, so it's actually more like neck-middle.-- the coils being out of phase cancels out the bass and some of the mids, leaving just upper mids and treble.

(Full disclosure: I've had a Red Special copy for about 14 years. It's a very unique sounding instrument.)

 

[AmpegV4]

Re: Did the Red Special essentially have two 13k humbuckers most of the time?

The middle+bridge in-phase position on the Red Special is thicker and twangier than any bridge humbucker I've ever heard, as it's dominated by the sound of the middle pickup;

Has anyone ever sorta "broken apart" a regular humbucker and placed the upper coil inches away where a middle pickup would be? That would be an interesting "bridge humbucker" sound. In other words, has anyone ever made a strat pickup setup using 3 (mached) single coils from gibson humbuckers? (and then wire them in series combos like the Red Special)


Edit: after searching, this question was sorta asked years ago:

https://forum.seymourduncan.com/sho...rally-split-a-humbucker-into-two-single-coils

for instance can you break apart a duncan custom into two single coils and put them in the middle and bridge position.

And the problem lies with the magnets (which I totally forgot about).... a humbucker shares a common magnet underneath the bobbins... so it wouldn't work unless you put a magnet under each bobbin, and you essentially end up with a pair of low-output P90's in series. The tri-sonics use magnetic poles like a strat pickup.

 

[idsnowdog]

Re: Did the Red Special essentially have two 13k humbuckers most of the time?

I know DiMarzio for a short while (I think the '90s) had a signature Brian May set for his Red Special copies, but it was short lived as May thought they weren't that good.

I had a set of the Dimarzio BHM pickups and they sucked! They were poorly constructed and horribly microphonic. They didn't sound like strat pickups and I doubt they sounded much like a real Trisonic.

 

[freefrog]

Re: Did the Red Special essentially have two 13k humbuckers most of the time?

The tri-sonics use magnetic poles like a strat pickup.

They appear to but they don't. Under the six holes, there's a square section ceramic mag and an "air coil" without plastic bobbin laid around this magnet. Pic:

https://qph.is.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-657e50399d460763a44bdd5c1561bd32?convert_to_webp=true

FWIW.

 

[AmpegV4]

Re: Did the Red Special essentially have two 13k humbuckers most of the time?

They appear to but they don't. Under the six holes, there's a square section ceramic mag and an "air coil" without plastic bobbin laid around this magnet.

So, they're somewhat more similar to P90's than Strat pickups? (pole pieces -- that aren't magnets--on top of a magnet) ... except that the magnet is on it's side rather than laying flat? Is it one or two magnets?

 

[freefrog]

Re: Did the Red Special essentially have two 13k humbuckers most of the time?

Magnetically, it reacts like one single magnet with a coil around - albeit physically, it includes 2 or 3 stacked bars.

See the post 14 here: https://forum.seymourduncan.com/showthread.php?228116-Brian-May-Had-Signature-DiMarzios

 

[AmpegV4]

Re: Did the Red Special essentially have two 13k humbuckers most of the time?

Here's some extra links to throw into this thread:

A listing of which pickup combos Brian May uses on various Queen songs (I'm mostly interested in the "main setting humbucker tone")

http://www.mikeryde.com/switch.html

This company Addeson claims to be using the same original winding machines as Burns used for the orginal Tri Sonics:

http://www.adeson.co.uk/Index.html

GFS sells a Strat pickguard kit for Red Special wiring: (pickups not included)

http://www.guitarfetish.com/BHM-Style-Wiring-Kits_c_226.html

Here's a webpage with both a Tele and a Strat setup with Tri sonics (scroll down)

http://www.telemodders.com/e_bergman.html

Plenty of Youtube vids out there of Strats that have been modded like this (although it would probably help the have a 24" scale neck like a Jaguar/Mustang)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kcDoI5DR_dI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YHzYCXHYYMw

Speaking of 24" Fender Jaguars, a red body with black pickguard would be a interesting guitar for being "Red Specialed"

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20150517/242fee3b96d0233a89ffb553514c7a84.jpg
https://reverb-res.cloudinary.com/i...co,w_620/v1464497835/oodkllilwwg2pjmqkswc.jpg

 

[6p5p]

Re: Did the Red Special essentially have two 13k humbuckers most of the time?

Good point... yea its the whole signal chain as well as the arrangements of the songs that all contributes to the heaviosity. Having single coils in series probably is a big part of it though.

At this point in 2016, who's Tri Sonics does anyone recommend?

I'll revive your thread with another information: 220k log pots are also very important part of the BM's sound chain, there should be a 0.022uF resistor on the tone pot.
That gives quite lot of the fat, warm sound character.

Presently made Burns Tri-Sonic pickups are sounding very authentic IMHO