Difference between original JB and current JB?

Cdwillis

New member
I was just reading Seymour's description of creating the original JB and jazz set for Jeff Beck. He says that the JB had two different wire gauges used, with the thinner wire being for the screw coil. I think I also read that he originally used an A2, not the A5. Is that right? Does the current production model JB use one wire gauge now? If so, why did he make these changes?
 
Re: Difference between original JB and current JB?

The proto may have been based on the Holdsworth. DiMarzio has some sort of protective custody of mismatched coil construction, preventing SD from using the same type of construction. At least that's what I keep seeing here. Could be that it's too much PITA for too little tonal gain in Seymour's opinion, but either way, it doesn't bother me so it's not an issue.
 
Re: Difference between original JB and current JB?

There's the production "JB" as we know it and then there's the custom shop "Concept Set", which is essentially the original JB and Jazz prototypes that Jeff Beck received: LINK
 
Re: Difference between original JB and current JB?

I'm glad someone started a thread about this. It's a dark secret which hasn't been exposed yet.
 
Re: Difference between original JB and current JB?

DiMarzio has some sort of protective custody of mismatched coil construction, preventing SD from using the same type of construction.

Bull pucky... patent 4501185 which is Dimarzios dual resonance patent which was comprised of 2 coils wound with different gauges of wire to the same number of turns expired in 2005.

They have no other "protective custody" on that idea. Mismatched coils are fair game, never mind that when the JB was invented Dimarzio didnt even hold that patent.
 
Re: Difference between original JB and current JB?

Difference between an old JB original production and the current ones is….nada.

And - I suspect Seymour prefers the production - he made it for him/everyone. Not just what Jeff Beck's ears wanted/needed.
 
Re: Difference between original JB and current JB?

Difference between an old JB original production and the current ones is….nada.


I wish this was true Ace... but its not. There have been a number of small changes that add up to fairly different pickups.

Probably the biggest is the change from sand cast magnets to polished mags. Anyone who has swapped between a polished and a rough mag can tell you there is a very real sonic difference between the 2.

Other differences are the change in bobbin material. They started as butyrate and changed to nylon then to the now polycarbonate. This does have a small but real effect on the tone. In particular butyrate. Why? Because its softer. When the bobbin is wound it squeezes a little and changes the shape of the coil. The new polycarbonate doesnt do this

Another change the maple spacer, the effect this has on tone is hotly argued. But it is a change none the less. Some say it matters some say it doesnt.

There are 2 other changes that I suspect that have occured but SD has never confirmed. I think the material in the screws and slugs has changed. My reloading scale says this is true if you weigh the screws out of a new JB and compare with an early 80's one the older ones are heavier.

I also suspect that there have been changes to the wire used. While maybe they are buying the same wire from the same manufacturer the process used to make the wire has changed and it isnt 100% the same. Even if what was done was eliminate production tolerance, those lose tolerances were part of the sound of the JB


Want an easy way to tell that the JB has changed?


SD made a antiquity and a 35th anniversary JB, If they hadnt changed why would they give us the ad copy about all the "vintage" features in these models?

Sorry Bob, The JB has changed over time.
 
Re: Difference between original JB and current JB?

To be clear, the OP was asking about the pickup Jeff Beck received vs the "production" JB. To answer his questions more precisely:

- Yes, the production JB uses the same type of wire on each coil.
- Yes, Jeff Beck's original prototype pickup had an A2 in it.
- "Why" were changes made to the original design? You'd have to ask Seymour! There may have been additional characteristics Seymour desired or considerations surrounding the actual production of the pickup (maybe he got a better deal on A5 magnets!).

Edgecrusher, there's no arguing that the material composition of the JB has changed notably since the early days. However, how much these changes audibly affect the end signal is largely debatable, as you said. After all, the core wire type and wind geometry has remained the same.

Personally, I do not subscribe to the idea that the presence of butyrate bobbins and maple spacers contribute to an audible difference that 99.9999% of us could hear in a proper blind test.

Also, does a minute, merely potential variation in coil geometry due to wire theoretically "squeezing" the core of a butyrate bobbin overpower the affects of more prominent variations in wire tolerance, magnet types and pole piece materials? I strongly doubt it. Besides, you'd have to induce quite a bit of tension to start deforming butyrate significantly and the JB uses a much thinner wire (44 gauge) than even PAF types (42 gauge), meaning that it can't resist as much tension and certainly can't do so without stretching undesirably, which poses another issue in regards to consistency.

Like you, I do suspect that the pole piece composition has changed over time. We already know that magnet suppliers changed over time and that the exact composition between magnet lots, even from the same supplier, could vary. I see no reason why this couldn't be true of the hard parts over the years, such as the slugs and screws. Additionally, magnet wire can have a large variance between production lots and, back in the early years, SD didn't have the testing processes in place to insure consistency of the wire like it does now. Yet, despite the process improvements, you still see production "tolerance" being a concern even today.

Wax potting of butyrate vs polycarbonate is also a hotly debated topic...

So, what really separates an "old" JB from a newer one? Is it the species of wood used for the spacer? Is it the density of the pole screws? Is it the longer mounting legs or the unique "life" the pickup has led over the past 35 years?

There's no single factor. But, for all these variables, the JB's sound remains largely unchanged and I think that's what ACE was getting at.

If you want the absolute closest thing to the "old school" JB, the 35th Anniversary is your best bet. If you want to recreate the pickup Jeff Beck received in his Tele-Gib, the Concept JB is the one you need.
 
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Re: Difference between original JB and current JB?

To be clear, the OP was asking about the pickup Jeff Beck received vs the "production" JB. To answer his questions more precisely:

- Yes, the production JB uses the same type of wire on each coil.
- Yes, Jeff Beck's original prototype pickup had an A2 in it.
- "Why" were changes made to the original design? You'd have to ask Seymour! There may have been additional characteristics Seymour desired or considerations surrounding the actual production of the pickup (maybe he got a better deal on A5 magnets!).

Edgecrusher, there's no arguing that the material composition of the JB has changed notably since the early days. However, how much these changes audibly affect the end signal is largely debatable, as you said. After all, the core wire type and wind geometry has remained the same.

Personally, I do not subscribe to the idea that the presence of butyrate bobbins and maple spacers contribute to an audible difference that 99.9999% of us could hear in a proper blind test.

Also, does a minute, merely potential variation in coil geometry due to wire theoretically "squeezing" the core of a butyrate bobbin overpower the affects of more prominent variations in wire tolerance, magnet types and pole piece materials? I strongly doubt it. Besides, you'd have to induce quite a bit of tension to start deforming butyrate significantly and the JB uses a much thinner wire (44 gauge) than even PAF types (42 gauge), meaning that it can't resist as much tension and certainly can't do so without stretching undesirably, which poses another issue in regards to consistency.

Like you, I do suspect that the pole piece composition has changed over time. We already know that magnet suppliers changed over time and that the exact composition between magnet lots, even from the same supplier, could vary. I see no reason why this couldn't be true of the hard parts over the years, such as the slugs and screws. Additionally, magnet wire can have a large variance between production lots and, back in the early years, SD didn't have the testing processes in place to insure consistency of the wire like it does now. Yet, despite the process improvements, you still see production "tolerance" being a concern even today.

Wax potting of butyrate vs polycarbonate is also a hotly debated topic...

So, what really separates an "old" JB from a newer one? Is it the species of wood used for the spacer? Is it the density of the pole screws? Is it the longer mounting legs or the unique "life" the pickup has led over the past 35 years?

There's no single factor. But, for all these variables, the JB's sound remains largely unchanged and I think that's what ACE was getting at.

If you want the absolute closest thing to the "old school" JB, the 35th Anniversary is your best bet. If you want to recreate the pickup Jeff Beck received in his Tele-Gib, the Concept JB is the one you need.
I was about to facepalm and say "Not this thread, AGAIN!" but then I read the logical smackdown you just wrote.

Thanks, masta!
 
Re: Difference between original JB and current JB?

I know what the OP was asking I was replying to Bobs comment that the JB hasnt changed.

Also NEVER underestimate the differences that small changes can have. You can hear butyrate bobbins. If you have pickups side by side that are as same as can be there is a small but real difference between them. This occurs mostly because the wire nearest the center of the bobbin has the greatest effect on tone. Is it something you can hear in a mix? Not really... Is it someone that if someone came up to you and asked you "can you tell if this pickup has butyrate bobbins or poly bobbins just from the sound" I seriously doubt it. But when you are splitting hairs there is a difference.

A good example of a difference that I havent personally messed with but Frank Falbo related was the differences in keeper bars. He said they tried different vendors and the vendor was making the holes in the keeper bars a few thousandths! of inch too big. What difference would this make? Its just the bar that the screws go through shouldnt make any right? According to Frank it made enough of a difference that it was easily heard.

So dont underestimate small changes. When you have 8 or 9 of them they add up. Is it still a JB? Sure... but its not the same.

All that being said the 2 JB's I have in guitars are actually new production JB's just they have sand cast A5's from Thorbak in them. My vintage JB's arent installed in anything at the moment.
 
Re: Difference between original JB and current JB?

For my money, if I want the OLD JB sound, I'm gonna go for the Antiquity model. I've never been able to get one from before the 1990s to sound the way I want. Maybe it's an age thing.
 
Re: Difference between original JB and current JB?

For my money, if I want the OLD JB sound, I'm gonna go for the Antiquity model. I've never been able to get one from before the 1990s to sound the way I want. Maybe it's an age thing.
It's probably exactly that. You could probably build two Strats on the same machines using the same hardware, pickups, and wood from the same forest, and the older one will probably sound a bit different in a way that different than variation between instruments of the same production run.

Sent from my Moto X 2014 using Tapatalk
 
Re: Difference between original JB and current JB?

Concept JB
35th Anniversary JB
Antiquity JB
JBJ
Production JB
Original JB
JB2
UOA5 JB
JB8
JB/Custom Hybrid
JB Hold the Mayo
Hip to JB Square
Do You JBelieve in Life After Love
 
Re: Difference between original JB and current JB?

^^
Don't forget the "Dokken" JB with the standard thickness ceramic.
 
Re: Difference between original JB and current JB?

Don't forget the JB+


On the issue of bobbin and spacer material, if one cannot link to reputable scientific evidence, it should be treated like a religious belief and not allowed to be put forth here as fact.

You cannot compare a vintage pickup to a new one, or even a newer one, or even to another of the same vintage and say this or that makes a difference.
I bought 2 1983 Distortions that came from the same guitar - a 1983 Jackson Rhoads Student - from the original owner a few years ago. One was a DDL, one a DDJ. They were put in the guitar by Jackson and were the same age and played the same songs at the same locations and in the same environments for the same amount of time.
Both were bridge models (screws on the same coil).

They sounded different from one another.

Same bobbins, same wire, same magnet, same slugs, same spacers, same everything except winder and tone.
 
Re: Difference between original JB and current JB?

What's the JB+, remind me please. And as to the rest of what you say, I agree. And would add, is that not part of the beauty of them?
 
Re: Difference between original JB and current JB?

^^
Ah, gotcha, and the double thick is a virtual Distortion.
Which makes me wonder, anyone ever try a JB with an A9? Or in any of the configurations mentioned above with additional spacer magnets?
 
Re: Difference between original JB and current JB?

On the issue of bobbin and spacer material, if one cannot link to reputable scientific evidence, it should be treated like a religious belief and not allowed to be put forth here as fact.

This forum cracks me up. When people start trying to measure things and be scientific it lights up like a pin ball machine with all sorts of people screaming "keep science away from my music!" Then when there is an idea that they dont cotton onto they want to see the "scientific evidence"

But there is strong empirical evidence that the bobbin material does matter. In some cases observation is more than enough and that is true here, we arent asking to what degree we are only asking "does it sound different" the answer is yes. I dont need an oscilloscope or anything else other than my ears to make that observation. A good example of this is when your a kid and your mom says "dont touch the stove its hot" did you ask her for a measurement? No the fact that has been observed as hot is good enough evidence.

Just because you havent observed something doesnt mean that others havent. Does it really bother you that much that a change in bobbin material could effect tone? If the tiny holes through the keeper bar can effect tone then why cant the bobbin material? If the tiny difference between a smooth finish and a rough finish on a magnet effect tone then why is it so hideously revolting to you that bobbin material could possibly do the same?

Same bobbins, same wire, same magnet, same slugs, same spacers, same everything except winder and tone.

Dunno kiddo, maybe 2 different pickups were... different. Its called production tolerances it happens with everything. Even among pickups made now 2 of the same model rarely sound 100% identical.

But! are you sure they dont sound identical? Did you scientifically measure them to make sure they didnt sound identical?

Why is your empirical observation satisfactory here but empirical observation is not satisfactory elsewhere?
 
Re: Difference between original JB and current JB?

^^
Huh huh huh, I never learned to stop touching that hot stove. That's why I became a cook.
 
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