Dimarzio - wiring confusion

[andyg_prs]

Hi,

As far as I can tell, on Dimarzios, red is hot, black and white is split, green goes to ground.

However, when it comes to wiring two Dimarzios with coil tapping, we have this:


Whereas, guitar electronics, which is a good source, has the following:



Now, the Dimarzio ones says inner coils split. It is taking both split wires to ground each time.

The Guitar Electronics one takes the neck split to ground and the bridge split to the hot wire.

I've no idea if both are achieving the same thing, eg the correct coils and ensuring hum cancelling / correct phase when you have both pickups selected and the coil tap.

The Dimarzio is an Evolution neck (DP 158) I've measured with a multimeter and the coils are assymetrical with the white to red/green giving 7.14 KOhms but the black/bare to red/green giving 5.70 KOhms.

My instinct is to follow the Dimarzio wiring, but I am fascinated to understand better.

Also, the evolution has grub/hex screws on both bobbins.....so I have no idea in which orientation it is supposed to be installed. When installed is the wire supposed to run from bottom right or top left? I ask as on PRS, it is bottom right for the bridge pickup and top left for the neck...

Thanks,
Andy

 

[Jack_TriPpEr]

Andy,

In the Dimarzio drawing, the Neck pickup has been wired "inside out" so that the South coil is left active. That is why the White wire is being used as the Hot wire for that pickup innthat diagram, White being associated with the South coil on Dimarzio pickups. So in the Dimarzio diagram the coils left active in the coilsplit mode will be Neck South coil and Bridge North coil. If those pickups are mounted in their pickup rings in normal orientation (i.e. the two South coils are the outer coils), then "location" wise, this yields Neck outer coil and Bridge inner coil as active. If you want both inner coils, you could rotate the neck pickup around 180 degrees in how it sits in its mounting ring (presuming there are no aesthetic reasons like logos to make the rotation an undesirable move). The reason that the Dimarzio diagram leaves coils of different magnetic polarities active in coilsplit mode, is so that the sound will be hum-canceling.

The guitarelectronics.com diagram uses a different methodology for coilsplitting. In this diagram, it is the Bridge pickup - not the Neck pickup like in the Dimarzio diagram - that they get the South coil to be active in coilsplit mode. And instead of wiring the pickup inside out and sending the series link pair to ground like in the Dimarzio diagram, they instead leave it wired as normal (i.e. North coil's wire is the hot wire) BUT route the series link wire pair to Hot signal instead of to ground. That routing is another method for leaving the other coil active in split coil mode. So in the guitarelectronics.com diagram, we have Bridge South coil active and Neck North coil active. And again if those two humbuckers are physically mounted in the guitar in normal orientation (with the South coils as the outer coils), then you have Bridge outer coil and Neck inner coil left active. Here again the sound will be hum-canceling because each active coil has opposite magnetic polarity. And you are free to rotate one or both pups in their mounting rings if you instead want Both Inner Coils active, Both Outer Coils active, etc.

Pickups are manufactued to be mounted in normal orientation as i described above (each South cpil being the outer coil), and you'll find when you have them placed in that orientation. the wires will be exiting the pickup baseplate from tbe lower right. But when you start rotating one or both pickups in order to get the two active coils where you want each one physically, then the exit direction of the wires "spins around" with it, naturally. Like you observed on ome of your PRS pups.

You can use a compass to note the magnetic polarity of each coil on your Evolution, so you can decide how you want to orient the pup in the pickup mounting ring depending on which coil you choose to have active in coilsplit mode.

This how-to video on youtube shows you how to use the compass, as well as other worthwhile measurements and specs to take on your pickups before installing them. https://youtu.be/7UfxQBhqen8

 

[andyg_prs]

Andy,

In the Dimarzio drawing, the Neck pickup has been wired "inside out" so that the South coil is left active. That is why the White wire is being used as the Hot wire for that pickup innthat diagram, White being associated with the South coil on Dimarzio pickups. So in the Dimarzio diagram the coils left active in the coilsplit mode will be Neck South coil and Bridge North coil. If those pickups are mounted in their pickup rings in normal orientation (i.e. the two South coils are the outer coils), then "location" wise, this yields Neck outer coil and Bridge inner coil as active. If you want both inner coils, you could rotate the neck pickup around 180 degrees in how it sits in its mounting ring (presuming there are no aesthetic reasons like logos to make the rotation an undesirable move). The reason that the Dimarzio diagram leaves coils of different magnetic polarities active in coilsplit mode, is so that the sound will be hum-canceling.

The guitarelectronics.com diagram uses a different methodology for coilsplitting. In this diagram, it is the Bridge pickup - not the Neck pickup like in the Dimarzio diagram - that they get the South coil to be active in coilsplit mode. And instead of wiring the pickup inside out and sending the series link pair to ground like in the Dimarzio diagram, they instead leave it wired as normal (i.e. North coil's wire is the hot wire) BUT route the series link wire pair to Hot signal instead of to ground. That routing is another method for leaving the other coil active in split coil mode. So in the guitarelectronics.com diagram, we have Bridge South coil active and Neck North coil active. And again if those two humbuckers are physically mounted in the guitar in normal orientation (with the South coils as the outer coils), then you have Bridge outer coil and Neck inner coil left active. Here again the sound will be hum-canceling because each active coil has opposite magnetic polarity. And you are free to rotate one or both pups in their mounting rings if you instead want Both Inner Coils active, Both Outer Coils active, etc.

Pickups are manufactued to be mounted in normal orientation as i described above (each South cpil being the outer coil), and you'll find when you have them placed in that orientation. the wires will be exiting the pickup baseplate from tbe lower right. But when you start rotating one or both pickups in order to get the two active coils where you want each one physically, then the exit direction of the wires "spins around" with it, naturally. Like you observed on ome of your PRS pups.

You can use a compass to note the magnetic polarity of each coil on your Evolution, so you can decide how you want to orient the pup in the pickup mounting ring depending on which coil you choose to have active in coilsplit mode.

This how-to video on youtube shows you how to use the compass, as well as other worthwhile measurements and specs to take on your pickups before installing them.

Thanks Jack. Is that you in tne video? Regardless it was really helpful.

I've learnt enough to do basic wiring and troubleshoot basic issues, but I still have a lot further to go.

Interestingly, I wrote an email to Dimarzio tech support, because with more digging on their website, I also found this:





In that version, they are sending the white +ve green -ve coil to ground for both pickups (tested as per your video ) and what is even stranger is that the white +ve green -ve coil is the higher resistance on the Evolution which would suggest it is the preferred coil to be active in a coil split!

I haven't tested the North/South yet....I need to order a cheap compass from Amazon!

Where I am still confused is the relevance of electronic and magnetic phase and how they interact.

Electronic phase
Full humbuckers, you usually want those to be individually wired in series. Parallel wiring is usually a switchable option used as an alternative to coil splitting.

When combining pickups, you are connecting those in parallel. My logic is that with standard selector switches you are combining the hot wire of each pickup so +ve to +ve.

When the coils are split on both pickups, e.g. you have neck + bridge, unless you are trying to simulate a humbucker, you want those connected in parallel. Again that seems logical to me because in standard coil splitting, you are just taking one coil to ground. So the selector switch is still combining the hot wire of the active coil of each pickup.

Magnetic phase - if such a phrase exists

Here I'm guessing it matters mainly for single / split coils....so when they are combined, you want a North and a South magnet together.

But on humbuckers (PRS to Dimarzio combo) with both humbuckers together I had a thin/weak sound.....not sure if that was down to the magnet. I got around that by flipping the wiring of the pickup's hot and ground wires.

Let me try to ask a question. When you have two pickups combined in parallel, do you always want to have the hot on one to correspond to a North magnet and hot on the other to a South magnet? Or is it different for humbucker to single coil?

I'm basically confused about what does the noise (hum) cancelling and what causes the cancelling out of the "good" signal.

Once my wiring is correct, I think the flipping of a humbucker only impacts the sound in terms of which coil is closer or further from the neck/bridge - is that correct?

I hope that makes sense, and sorry for all the questions - hopefully this will iron out my lack of knowledge once and for all!

Cheers,
Andy

 

[andyg_prs]

Hi, above I was just trying to say that I also found on the Dimarzio website another wiring diagram that had both pickups' black and white wires going to earth...but I can't edit that post without getting a 403 error at the moment despite clearing my cache...frustrating!

 

[Jack_TriPpEr]

Hi, above I was just trying to say that I also found on the Dimarzio website another wiring diagram that had both pickups' black and white wires going to earth...but I can't edit that post without getting a 403 error at the moment despite clearing my cache...frustrating!

you'd have to review rhat diagram to see if there is a reason listed for why both pickups are wired that way. Maybe one of the two pickups in that scenario is a Reverse Wind Reverse Polarity (RWRP) setup. Maybe the diagram you found was for a HSH pickup setup, not just a HH setup. And finally, maybe in that diagram there was no thought given to trying to achieve hum-canceling in splitcoil mode.

 

[Jack_TriPpEr]

Thanks Jack. Is that you in tne video? Regardless it was really helpful.

I've learnt enough to do basic wiring and troubleshoot basic issues, but I still have a lot further to go.

Interestingly, I wrote an email to Dimarzio tech support, because with more digging on their website, I also found this:





In that version, they are sending the white +ve green -ve coil to ground for both pickups (tested as per your video ) and what is even stranger is that the white +ve green -ve coil is the higher resistance on the Evolution which would suggest it is the preferred coil to be active in a coil split!

I haven't tested the North/South yet....I need to order a cheap compass from Amazon!

Where I am still confused is the relevance of electronic and magnetic phase and how they interact.

Electronic phase
Full humbuckers, you usually want those to be individually wired in series. Parallel wiring is usually a switchable option used as an alternative to coil splitting.

When combining pickups, you are connecting those in parallel. My logic is that with standard selector switches you are combining the hot wire of each pickup so +ve to +ve.

When the coils are split on both pickups, e.g. you have neck + bridge, unless you are trying to simulate a humbucker, you want those connected in parallel. Again that seems logical to me because in standard coil splitting, you are just taking one coil to ground. So the selector switch is still combining the hot wire of the active coil of each pickup.

Magnetic phase - if such a phrase exists

Here I'm guessing it matters mainly for single / split coils....so when they are combined, you want a North and a South magnet together.

But on humbuckers (PRS to Dimarzio combo) with both humbuckers together I had a thin/weak sound.....not sure if that was down to the magnet. I got around that by flipping the wiring of the pickup's hot and ground wires.

Let me try to ask a question. When you have two pickups combined in parallel, do you always want to have the hot on one to correspond to a North magnet and hot on the other to a South magnet? Or is it different for humbucker to single coil?

I'm basically confused about what does the noise (hum) cancelling and what causes the cancelling out of the "good" signal.

Once my wiring is correct, I think the flipping of a humbucker only impacts the sound in terms of which coil is closer or further from the neck/bridge - is that correct?

I hope that makes sense, and sorry for all the questions - hopefully this will iron out my lack of knowledge once and for all!

Cheers,
Andy

Hi again Andy,

No, that is not me in the video.

It seems like you wanted to attach a diagram... but there is no digram attached to your post.

Here is a link to a recent thread on this forum where members were discussing how much impact rotating a pickup has on the sound.
https://forum.seymourduncan.com/for...-any-tonal-differences-if-you-flip-the-pickup

Regarding the thin sound when you combined a PRS and Dimarzio pickup: seems like the teo were out of phase with each other, and so you swapping around hot and ground wires on one of them was the correct fix.

Your question "does one always want two coils of opposite magnetic polarity when combing 2 split coils?" Answer: no, it's all personal choice. Some people don't care about the presence of 60 cycle hum when two coils of the same polarity are combined. If you play at home only (don't gig out), that hum may not be very pronounced because you're playing at a lower volume than gig-levels AND you probably don't have other hum-elevating devices active and running on the same cricuit like neon lights found in a bar. Also, some people claim that in a guitar with singlecoil pickups , that the "cluck" characteristic found in Positions 2 and 4 is stronger when the two singlecoil pickups are the same magnetic polarity (and they are ok with any 60 cycle hum noise they get as a result of that). But generally, if you WANT to avoid potential 60 cycle hum noise, then you want the two active coils to be opposite magnetic polarity.

To better understand magnetic polarity and winding-direction polarity, I recommend reading through the different articles concerning electric guitar pickups on this website: http://www.1728.org/indexfun.htm

 

[Jack_TriPpEr]

... particularly articles "How a humbucking pickup works" and "basic electric guitar wiring page 1".

 

[Jack_TriPpEr]

Another great educational resource is this page on the Deaf-Eddie.net site. Partixularly, tbe link to his article "Coil Shunts", which explains about the difference in routing the series link pair wires to ground or to Hot.

http://www.deaf-eddie.net/drawings/drawings.html

 

[Mincer]

That's a really great video..thanks for sharing it!

 

[andyg_prs]

Hi again Andy,

No, that is not me in the video.

It seems like you wanted to attach a diagram... but there is no digram attached to your post.

Here is a link to a recent thread on this forum where members were discussing how much impact rotating a pickup has on the sound.
https://forum.seymourduncan.com/for...-any-tonal-differences-if-you-flip-the-pickup

Regarding the thin sound when you combined a PRS and Dimarzio pickup: seems like the teo were out of phase with each other, and so you swapping around hot and ground wires on one of them was the correct fix.

Your question "does one always want two coils of opposite magnetic polarity when combing 2 split coils?" Answer: no, it's all personal choice. Some people don't care about the presence of 60 cycle hum when two coils of the same polarity are combined. If you play at home only (don't gig out), that hum may not be very pronounced because you're playing at a lower volume than gig-levels AND you probably don't have other hum-elevating devices active and running on the same cricuit like neon lights found in a bar. Also, some people claim that in a guitar with singlecoil pickups , that the "cluck" characteristic found in Positions 2 and 4 is stronger when the two singlecoil pickups are the same magnetic polarity (and they are ok with any 60 cycle hum noise they get as a result of that). But generally, if you WANT to avoid potential 60 cycle hum noise, then you want the two active coils to be opposite magnetic polarity.

To better understand magnetic polarity and winding-direction polarity, I recommend reading through the different articles concerning electric guitar pickups on this website: http://www.1728.org/indexfun.htm

Thanks - this is what I wanted to attach, but it wouldn't let me. https://d2emr0qhzqfj88.cloudfront.net/s3fs-public/diagrams/4Conductor_47.pdf

 

[solspirit]

About 20 years ago I had this and questions about wiring a phase switch, I called them and spoke to a woman named Nancy that walked me through it. I called her a few other times also and she was very knowledgeable, helpful and nice.

 

[Jack_TriPpEr]

Thanks - this is what I wanted to attach, but it wouldn't let me. https://d2emr0qhzqfj88.cloudfront.ne...nductor_47.pdf

If you're asking about the section that i attached to this reply as a pic, i believe the intent was to illustrate how the 2nd side of a DPDT switch could be used to split a 2nd pickup. They had just gotten thru an explanation of how coilsplitting is done for 1 pickup by using 1 side of the switch (using black & white wires). If they used green & red wires on the other side, that would have necessitated an additional explanation that was beyond the scope of that small section. In my estimation.

 

[andyg_prs]

I think I'm there!

Dimarzio say (referring to the diagram where the bridge uses black white as the split and the neck uses the red green as the split)

The instructions included with the pickups split to the North coil (the slug coil on the TZ). The pdf diagram splits the neck pickup to the South coil (the one located over the cable exit), so that the 2 pickups cancel hum when they are on together in split mode. To split to the inner coils, the Evo should be installed in the same direction as the TZ.

DiMarzio Inc.
The instructions included with the pickups split to the North coil (the slug coil on the TZ). The pdf diagram splits the neck pickup to the South coil (the one located over the cable exit), so that the 2 pickups cancel hum when they are on together in split mode. To split to the inner coils, the Evo should be installed in the same direction as the TZ.

DiMarzio Inc.

Now, the bridge Tonezone is installed with the cable exit towards the bridge, and the slug coils are pointing to the neck.

With the neck Evolution on my bench with the cable exit towards the bridge, the south coil is located over the cable exit, it does correspond to white postiive, green negative, which is the more powerful coil - all good.

My compass has arrived.... With both pickups arranged such that the cable exit is towards the bridge, the polarity of the magnet at the cable exit is South for both pickups.

However, the inner coil of the Evolution is South and the inner coil of the Tonezone is North - which gives me my reverse direction for both current and magnetism.

Let me know if I have anything wrong!

Thanks,
Andy

 

[Jack_TriPpEr]

If I am following you correctly, the Evolution pickup you will be using in the neck slot, has South magnetic polarity for its inner coil? And the Tone Zone pickup you will be using in the Bridge, has North magnetic polarity for its inner coil?

If the Evolution pup is designed as a Neck pickup, I would expect its inner coil to have North magnetic polarity. So it seeems odd that those are the findings, but it's not a bad thing, as the orientations work out to provide you hum-canceling if you setup your coilsplits to be either Both Inners or Both Outers.

Have you decided which coils you want active for your coilsplits? If you choose something not covered by either of the diagrams you cited earlier, i can advise you on how to modify one of those diagrams to get you what you want, if you need the help.

 

[andyg_prs]

Hi,

In this picture, the Evo has the cable coming out towards the bridge, and the inside coil the compass is pointing to has South magnetic polarity. (according to the video you recommended the North pole being a south magnet)



In this picture the Tonezone has the cable coming out towards the bridge. I couldn't use the compass in between the two installed pickups (neck is PRS) as they are too close and "confuse" the compass, but you can see that the outside coil is South, so the inside coil must be North magentic polarity. Does that make sense?



I want to use the inner coils for the coil splits and that is what the wiring is doing - so I think I'm all good!

Except, I'm looking for an Air Norton for the neck as I'm told that's a better match for the Tonezone.

Cheers,
Andy

 

[Jack_TriPpEr]

Andy,

Seems like you're doing things right.

Normally we could try to tell if your Evo pup really is a Neck or Bridge version by comparing the DC Resistance you measured for it, compared to the manufacturer's published DC Resistance for the Neck version and Bridge version - but I see on the Dimarzio site that the DC Resistances of Neck and Bridge versions of the Evo are designed very similar to each other (both at about 13K) so no help there.

Still, this is a good example of how valuable it is to be able to measure and know the specs of the pups we have in hand, before making diagram choices for the pups. Without these magnetic polarity measurements, we would have assumed the Evo's inner coil was North magnetic polarity because it is a Neck version, and we would have made certain choices based on that in design of the wiring diagram.

[EDIT]: i went back and revisited my earlier analyses of the original 2 diagrams that you posted, to remember what was going on with them. Yes, the Dimarzio one works for what you want to achieve.

 

[andyg_prs]

Thanks - it has 158 in a label on its underside, so I assume that is original and it is the neck version. Very much enjoying this learning experience

 

[Jack_TriPpEr]

Thanks - it has 158 in a label on its underside, so I assume that is original and it is the neck version. Very much enjoying this learning experience

You did very well absorbing and interpretting correctly, a lot of information regarding a technical subject. Good job! Let us know how it turns out.

 

[andyg_prs]

Hi,

Ok, I got an unopened Air Norton on eBay for a great price. The slug coil is 6.62k and the screw coil is 5.32k. This leads me to believe I should split to the slug coil.

The slug coil is red +ve black -ve.

The slug coil is a North magnet.

With the cable exit pointing to the bridge, the slug coil is on the outside.

Re-capping from before, the bridge pickup is the ToneZone. Inner coil is the slug coil and is a North magnet.

In other words, the ToneZone and Air Norton appear to be exactly the same both wiring and magnet-wise.

The ToneZone is wired Black/white split to ground, red hot, green/bare to ground.

I had thought I understood everything but clearly not, as I didn't have this puzzle to solve.

What do I need to do when installing the Air Norton as the neck?

I want the slug coils on both pickups but they are the same magnetic orientation. I could have the Air Norton cable exit towards the bridge which will put the slug coil on the outside and now the inner screw coil which is a South magnet will face the inner slug coil North Magnet of the bridge ToneZone...but I suspect the physical orientation of the pickups will have little to no impact on things other than the position of the tapped coil in relation to the strings.

I'm thinking I could use the white as hot and black to ground (hoping that swapping the wiring (inside out?) would compensate for the magnetic orientation?) , but then taking red/green to earth would leave the weaker screw coil active on the split. In which case if I took the red/green to hot, I think that might leave the red/black slug coil active on the split.

That's what I would try without the benefit of this forum!

However, hoping for some guidance on achieving the best and most hum free combination of these two humbuckers in both full and split modes.

Thanks,
Andy

 

[Jack_TriPpEr]

Hi,

Ok, I got an unopened Air Norton on eBay for a great price. The slug coil is 6.62k and the screw coil is 5.32k. This leads me to believe I should split to the slug coil.

The slug coil is red +ve black -ve.

The slug coil is a North magnet.

With the cable exit pointing to the bridge, the slug coil is on the outside.

Re-capping from before, the bridge pickup is the ToneZone. Inner coil is the slug coil and is a North magnet.

In other words, the ToneZone and Air Norton appear to be exactly the same both wiring and magnet-wise.

The ToneZone is wired Black/white split to ground, red hot, green/bare to ground.

I had thought I understood everything but clearly not, as I didn't have this puzzle to solve.

What do I need to do when installing the Air Norton as the neck?

I want the slug coils on both pickups but they are the same magnetic orientation. I could have the Air Norton cable exit towards the bridge which will put the slug coil on the outside and now the inner screw coil which is a South magnet will face the inner slug coil North Magnet of the bridge ToneZone...but I suspect the physical orientation of the pickups will have little to no impact on things other than the position of the tapped coil in relation to the strings.

I'm thinking I could use the white as hot and black to ground (hoping that swapping the wiring (inside out?) would compensate for the magnetic orientation?) , but then taking red/green to earth would leave the weaker screw coil active on the split. In which case if I took the red/green to hot, I think that might leave the red/black slug coil active on the split.

That's what I would try without the benefit of this forum!

However, hoping for some guidance on achieving the best and most hum free combination of these two humbuckers in both full and split modes.

Thanks,
Andy

You have encountered one of the classic conundrums in wiring design decisions: you want to place the slug coil of the Air Norton pickup on the inside and make that the active coil in the Neck slot because it is the louder coil based on DC Resistance, but it won't be hum-canceling when combined with the inner (slug) coil of the Tone Zone of the Bridge pickup because they are both North magnetic polarity. The only way to get that particular arrangement to be hum-canceling is to flip the magnet in one of the two humbucker pickups. However, it may be worth your while to first see for yourself whether that small difference in DC Resistance btw the two Air Norton coils really matters enough loudness-wise, to bother doing the magnet flip. I.e. first wire it up with the Air Norton Screw (South magnetic polarity) arranged to sit as the inner coil, with (as you said) its White wire as hot, Red/Green as the series link, and Black as Ground, and listen to the results of Both Inner Coils In Parallel with your own ear, to decide if the tone and volume of that is truly lacking or not.