DMZ 36th vs SD 59 bridge pups?

[gimmieinfo]

Just curious, does anyone have a theory as to why these two pickups both with A5 and very similar winds have such radically different tone charts? The SD shows a considerable scoop and the DMZ just the opposite. I heard the DMZ is an air pup, could that be why? I;m curious because i have a 36th on the way and i was thinking if i don't like it and think it might be better scooped i could de-air it. But also because i;m just curious why they are so different. The air factor as far as i know is the only real difference aside from a fairly negligible difference (with respect to the not so negligible sonic difference) in wind with the DMZ having about .5k extra.

 

[gregory]

Re: DMZ 36th vs SD 59 bridge pups?

The 36th has both air and virtual vintage features.

But about the wind, ".5k extra" says nothing about the difference in wire type or pattern.

There are still other factors that contribute to the tone and feel of a pickup.

As for BMT figures, they are completely subjective with no agreed upon reference or method of measurement.

 

[gimmieinfo]

Re: DMZ 36th vs SD 59 bridge pups?

What is the VV feature technically ? I thought VV was a term used for thier noiseless single size pups.

 

[gimmieinfo]

Re: DMZ 36th vs SD 59 bridge pups?

Ahhhh, i see. Just found this and its quite interesting. http://www.dimarzioforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=420.0

 

[gregory]

Re: DMZ 36th vs SD 59 bridge pups?

https://www.google.com/patents/US5908998

 

[gimmieinfo]

Re: DMZ 36th vs SD 59 bridge pups?

Same thing they were saying in that thread. Seems like in simple terms it changes the inductance by altering the magnetic field to accomplish a thicker less harsh sound without affecting output or capacitance. The 36th should arrive tomorrow and now i'm really anxious to hear it. Maybe VV tech is why so many people like them. Otherwise it might be just another PAF. I tried a SD 59 years ago and thought it was too thin and bright so i assume thats what the VV tech aims to change. I really don't have a lot of experience with HB's tho, especially PAF types because i am mainly a SC man. So this is somewhat uncharted territory for me compared to SC's.

 

[blueman335]

Re: DMZ 36th vs SD 59 bridge pups?

I like '59's, but think they're much better with an UOPA5 in the bridge and an A4 in the neck. That should be the Vintage Blues Set.

 

[Rex_Rocker]

Re: DMZ 36th vs SD 59 bridge pups?

Honestly, I'd REALLY like to try a PAF 36th Bridge in my RGA121. I have a '59 Trembucker and a PAF 36th Anni in the neck that I love so much that, as much as I also like the '59, I'm curious if I'd like the DiMarzio better.

 

[Teleplayer]

Re: DMZ 36th vs SD 59 bridge pups?

Did you try the PAF PRO in the bridge of the RGA121?

 

[eclecticsynergy]

Re: DMZ 36th vs SD 59 bridge pups?

I don't think the VV & air tech are too responsible for the fundamental tone of the 36ths. They might mellow the highs a bit and soften the attack, but even back in the 70s (long before Larry began experimenting with air & VV) the DiMarzio PAFs had a certain sort of slight vowel tone that to my ear is still present in the modern pickups. Not unpleasant, just different from the Duncans.

I don't have any of the old DiMarzios anymore, but I do currently have a 36th bridge and a VPAF neck. Plus an an Air Norton and a couple of others that are less PAFish in nature.

 

[Discharged]

Re: DMZ 36th vs SD 59 bridge pups?

Larry began experimenting with air & VV

For the record, after Steve Blucher came to work for Di Marzio (I don't know the exact date, but knowing the X2N was his first, I'd say late '70s), Larry did from very little to extremely little concerning p'up design and/or R&D, as the name on almost all patents can attest.

But Larry became an accomplished fotographer!

 

[Rex_Rocker]

Re: DMZ 36th vs SD 59 bridge pups?

Did you try the PAF PRO in the bridge of the RGA121?

Yes. I love the PAF Pro in the bridge position of my RG570, but it was too thin/trebly for the already bright/snappy RGA.

TBH, the '59 is pretty bright too, but at least it has the deep, chunky bottom-end to go with it. I had to tame it with a 250K pot still.

DiMarzio PAFs had a certain sort of slight vowel tone that to my ear is still present in the modern pickups.

You think the PAF 36th Bridge has the AWW sound? I don't hear it in the neck version, personally. Then again, I just faintly hear it in the PAF Pro, not as much as everyone says. JME.

But about the wind, ".5k extra" says nothing about the difference in wire type or pattern.

They mention in the description it's 42-gauge and in the promotional video it's enamel-coated.

I wonder if it has balanced or unbalanced coils, though.

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: DMZ 36th vs SD 59 bridge pups?

I like '59's, but think they're much better with an UOPA5 in the bridge and an A4 in the neck. That should be the Vintage Blues Set.

I put RCA5 in my 59’s and like that too. Thicker...more texture to the mids...smoother/rounder treble.

To my ears, more of the tone of a 60 year old Gibson PAF...which I have owned and do have a lot of experience with.

But I like the 59’s, both stock or modded. Always have.

That said, I like PG, Seth and Antiquity pickups even more.

 

[gregory]

Re: DMZ 36th vs SD 59 bridge pups?

I wonder if it has balanced or unbalanced coils, though.

I doubt it, but if it does, wouldn't they have listed Patent 4,501,185?

 

[Teleplayer]

Re: DMZ 36th vs SD 59 bridge pups?

Yes. I love the PAF Pro in the bridge position of my RG570, but it was too thin/trebly for the already bright/snappy RGA.

TBH, the '59 is pretty bright too, but at least it has the deep, chunky bottom-end to go with it. I had to tame it with a 250K pot still.

Most demos of 36th paf bridge in hss guitar seem to be using 250k cotrols. Whereas I use the PAF PRO with a 500k volume and tone and a 1M parrallel resistor in a mahogany body strat. If you want a warmer bridge pickup to pair with the 36th paf neck, maybe look at the Thornbucker +. Personally, i like the PAF PRO in the bridge as it has more clarity and the perfect output level to balance the 36th paf neck.

 

[Rex_Rocker]

Re: DMZ 36th vs SD 59 bridge pups?

I don't really want warmer as much as I want weightier. I actually like bright pickups, but this particular guitar I feel could use a bit more low-end weight without leaving the PAF realm of clarity, openness, and airyness.

 

[gregory]

Re: DMZ 36th vs SD 59 bridge pups?

Unpolished A5? You won't get more bass, just less treble.

WLH is another option; possibly an Air Classic.

 

[freefrog]

Re: DMZ 36th vs SD 59 bridge pups?

Just curious, does anyone have a theory as to why these two pickups both with A5 and very similar winds have such radically different tone charts?

No “theory” here but I”ve done a few measurements on these pickups.

The DM 38th bridge has higher DCR & inductance (9.3k and 5.5H, if memory serves me, when a 59 would measure around 8.6k & 4.8H).

The neck model seems closer to a 59 neck (around 7.5k & 4.2H in both cases) but DMZ 36th's are not only "aired" : they also include added cores between the slugs - as it's the case in many DMZ's. it contributes to a lower "Q factor", giving something rounder / less "mid scooped" than other PU's.

And whatever the patents say, DM36th's produced "dual resonance" when I’ve tested them.

Tonally, IME, these things seem more modern than vintage. I've found them "artificial", with a kind of sterile clarity and a hi-fi high pitched sizzle that I've not appreciated personally. YMMV.

But Larry became an accomplished fotographer!

He has developed other talents. See the double cream patent or his behavior with Chris Kinman a decade ago..

 

[eclecticsynergy]

Re: DMZ 36th vs SD 59 bridge pups?

You think the PAF 36th Bridge has the AWW sound? I don't hear it in the neck version, personally. Then again, I just faintly hear it in the PAF Pro, not as much as everyone says. JME.

I do, with the bridge- I think the extra windings probably bring up the mids a bit. Still, I remembering hearing some extra mids in the 70s pickups too. As I said, its not unpleasant, certainly not like a cocked-wah or anything. But the difference in mids between the 36th and an SH-1 (even with a UA5 in the 59) is night and day. Especially in mahogany. Over the years I've sorta come to associate a certain type of midrange flavor with the DiMarzio brand. As I said, this predates the VV and air designs.

Before anybody jumps on that I freely admit that I haven't owned a huge number of them. Right now I have two sets of Breeds, an AT-1, two Air Nortons, a VPAF neck and a 36th bridge. Duncans outnumber DiMarzios in my guitars by more than four to one.

 

[gregory]

Re: DMZ 36th vs SD 59 bridge pups?

And whatever the patents say, DM36th's produced "dual resonance" when I’ve tested them.

Since no data was presented for each individual coil of the 36th, maybe gimmieinfo can giveusinfo on the DCR of each coil. While (near) identical measurements won't rule out a dual resonance design that could be made from the same length of wire of the same gauge (e.g.: different insulation or wind pattern), a significant difference would certainly confirm it.

All that's needed is a multimeter to measure the resistance.