Does nickel cover and volume pots value have a dramatic effect on tone ?

[Lorenzar]

My 2 main guitars are a Les Paul Classic and an SG Standard. I always prefered the LP, although often favored the SG because it's more comfortable when playing in band situation.

Now that I'm only playing at home, I can really hear the differences between the 2 guitars, and sound wise alone, it's really night and day, the LP crushes the SG to me.

The SG sounds muffled in comparison, lacks attack (you can really feel it when doing palm mute chugga chugga), and really doesn't sound as open and as punchy as the LP.

Now besides the obvious differences between any LP and SG, here's the electronic differences between both axes :

LP : Slash Alnico 2 Pro signature humbucker set (open coil), with 500K CTS volume pots.
SG : Hybrid 59/Custom in the bridge, Seth Lover in the neck (both nickel cover) with 300K volume pots (Gibson PCB from 2011).

Since the SG got a higher output/alnico 5 magnet in the bridge, I would say on paper, it should be the tighter and more aggressive axe, but it's not. Like I said, it's even sound muffled in comparison, now the lower output alnico 2 humbucker sounding more open makes sense to me.

Do you think this more muffled and lack of bite coming from the SG possibly comes from the nickel covers (it's my only guitar with covered pickups) or maybe the 300K value ?
Or is it differences that makes sense between LP and SG or between Slash A2P and Hybrid 59/Custom ?

 

[Bogner]

IMPOSSIBLE to say for sure simply based off what you describe. It could be all those things and it could be some fo those things. Some guitars are just going to sound different no matter what the guts and pickups are. No two guitars are alike, much less different models. All that said, a nickel cover is the least tone altering cover out there. It's minimal but possible to detect. Gold metal covers are going to alter more. Pots definitely make a difference and changing values can darken or brighten things so that can be a factor. Pickup height etc can really change things as well. Heck, strings could be newer on one guitar than the other and not sound as fresh. Everything in the chain has an effect. What are the output numbers on the pickups?

 

[Mincer]

Keep in mind that the pickups on an SG are in slightly different places in relationship to the bridge. To me, this is why the neck pickup on an LP sounds so much better than the one on an SG.

 

[Artie]

The Slash version of the A2 Pro's definitely have a nice punch and attack. What you're describing sounds completely normal to me.

 

[Lorenzar]

Haven't checked the output in a while, but the 59/Custom reads higher value indeed....but sound wise I find the Slash A2P/Lp to kick the SG's ass by a long mile !!!! (which on paper, I wasn't expecting from it being lower output, Alnico 2 etc...).

P.S : strings are kinda old on both axes I believe, maybe older on the SG though. Set up is similar.

Having said that, I have another SG, a 70's Tribute which also features a PCB with 300K volume pots, but with a Duncan Distorsion (SH6) in the bridge. Now that I think of it, I also consider this axe to have somewhat of a muffled sound (but does not lack output/attack indeed). I have to plug it again and A/B it with the other 2 to see. Maybe it's just this old crappy PCB with 300K (I know newer Gibson PCB have 500K volume pots)

 

[jeremy]

300k pots vs 500k pots will make a noticeable difference. the covers do make a difference but its a more subtle softening of the high end to my ear. lower pot values squish the resonant peak and sound less bright

 

[superpete]

the guitars are different materials with different construction and different electronics...the pu covers are the least of your tonal concerns. swap pickup sets between each guitar. it's the only way to answer your question.

 

[alex1fly]

the guitars are different materials with different construction and different electronics...the pu covers are the least of your tonal concerns. swap pickup sets between each guitar. it's the only way to answer your question.

Fascinating experiment. Do this and report back

 

[eclecticsynergy]

300k pots vs 500k pots will make a noticeable difference. the covers do make a difference but its a more subtle softening of the high end to my ear. lower pot values squish the resonant peak and sound less bright

▲ ▲ ▲ This. Pots can make an audible difference in the highs.

Covered or not is a fairly subtle one - though one notable exception is the covers on some cheap import pickups.
Covers with brass under the plating can really suck highs.

 

[beaubrummels]

My 2 main guitars are a Les Paul Classic and an SG Standard. I always prefered the LP, although often favored the SG because it's more comfortable when playing in band situation.

Now that I'm only playing at home, I can really hear the differences between the 2 guitars, and sound wise alone, it's really night and day, the LP crushes the SG to me.

The SG sounds muffled in comparison, lacks attack (you can really feel it when doing palm mute chugga chugga), and really doesn't sound as open and as punchy as the LP.

Now besides the obvious differences between any LP and SG, here's the electronic differences between both axes :

LP : Slash Alnico 2 Pro signature humbucker set (open coil), with 500K CTS volume pots.
SG : Hybrid 59/Custom in the bridge, Seth Lover in the neck (both nickel cover) with 300K volume pots (Gibson PCB from 2011).

Since the SG got a higher output/alnico 5 magnet in the bridge, I would say on paper, it should be the tighter and more aggressive axe, but it's not. Like I said, it's even sound muffled in comparison, now the lower output alnico 2 humbucker sounding more open makes sense to me.

Do you think this more muffled and lack of bite coming from the SG possibly comes from the nickel covers (it's my only guitar with covered pickups) or maybe the 300K value ?
Or is it differences that makes sense between LP and SG or between Slash A2P and Hybrid 59/Custom ?

I have had exactly those setups in my SG and LP, in fact the Slash is still in my LP Studio. But my 59/C isn't covered. In my SG, with 500k pots, the 59/C was pretty solid and bright, very even, and output-wise sat right in between hot and vintage output pickups; it was not muffled in my SG - I would expect the ceramic cap on the PC board and the Gibson surface-mount 300k pots are doing that, moreso than the cover.

What's on paper doesn't tell the whole story. If a pickup is very even or thick in the mids, it may perceptually 'sound' louder than a scooped pickup that is technically hotter in actual mA output. Your amp will also accentuate that perception, depending on the model, speakers and how it's EQ'd.

Covers make a difference, but it's subtle. If you really know the guitar and really know the pickup model, you'll notice it right away, however. Pots make a difference that is subtle but slightly more noticeable right away. You don't have to know the guitar that well to notice the difference different value pots can make.

 

[pskorz]

I don't think that you can say the covers make NO difference, but I think it's pretty minimal. I think the more striking difference that the cover makes is how the pickup's setup gets altered due to the cover. Imagine that you take one of those slash pickups out of the les paul and put on a standard duncan pickup cover. The cover itself is pretty thin - maybe the thickness of a medium guitar pick. Whereas before the cover, I assume the screw poles were relatively flush with the bobbin, but with the cover on, they'd be raised at least enough to protrude past the cover slightly. Then when you put it back in the guitar, if you keep those screw poles at the same height relative to where they used to be, that means the slug poles are now perhaps .5 mm farther from the strings than it used to be. If you were to forget the cover but still set up the pickup in that fashion, you'd notice a slight difference in sound. Add that to whatever differences the cover is actually making, and the difference is more vast.

 

[Lewguitar]

300k pots vs 500k pots will make a noticeable difference. the covers do make a difference but its a more subtle softening of the high end to my ear. lower pot values squish the resonant peak and sound less bright

This is the answer.

If you use the same pickups in the same guitar and change from 500K pots to 300K pots the result will be a tone with less sparkle and less treble compared to those same pickups with 500K pots.

Depending on what you like that could be good or bad. If you have an extremely bright amp that change could be "good".

Removing the covers does make a slight difference but not a dramatic difference.

Some people, EVH supposedly being one, like a 500K volume pot and 300K tone pot.

The 300K tone pot eliminates some of the harsher, more metallic sounding treble and results in a warmer "brown" sound.

 

[SZjammin83]

Keep in mind that the pickups on an SG are in slightly different places in relationship to the bridge. To me, this is why the neck pickup on an LP sounds so much better than the one on an SG.

Agreed. I think this is a fact that is over looked all too often. I know we were talking Gibsons, but, this is the reason that I prefer The PRS Custom 22 as opposed to the 24. That LITTLE bit of added distance between the bridge and the pickup makes a WORLD of difference. The 24 fret model just will never have that same warmth from the neck position due to the fact that it is closer to the bridge. I believe this is the same point you were making in regard to the difference between the Les Paul and SG. While I like a Custom 22, you could also take this a step further, and I could point out that this is one of the main reasons I prefer a Gibson Les Paul to pretty much anything else out there, because it's a 22 fret with just the right spacing between the bridge and pickup, and it does one better (as far as what I prefer) with the shorter 24.75 inch scale length.

It's a 22 fret and a 22 fret only for me, and I also very much prefer the 24.75 scale length.


There are alot of other possibilities here as well though. I also agree with the fact that the 300k pots are definitely going to have a pretty noticeable affect on tone compared to 500k pots. I personally prefer 500k pots only when it comes to a guitar with humbuckers. The only situation where I would consider a 300k pot on a humbucker would be in the case of something like my HSS Fender Stratocaster, in which I purposely use a 300k as a sort of middle ground between the 250k typically found in Strats and a 500k. This provides, as I said, a middle ground, where I compromise for the sake of having the best tone for a guitar with both humbuker and single coil pickups. While there are other factors that come into play here as well (many of the same that have been mentioned in this thread), I can tell you that I have the same humbucker in an Epiphone LP that I have in the bridge of my HSS Strat, and the difference is plenty noticeable between the two guitars.

Also, I've learned to never underestimate the role your strings play in the tone of your guitar. Dead strings equal dead tone, plain and simple. And if the strings on your SG are old, and, older than those on the LP, I would say that before I did anymore comparisons or anything else period, I would change the strings on BOTH guitars and see where that puts you. I never understood Locking tuners and bulk pack strings back in the day, but one day a lightbulb came on and suddenly they both made all the sense in the world. A new set of GREAT strings makes a guitar sound great. You'll notice a difference acoustically first, the guitar will just sound great on its own without being plugged in, but then you plug it in, and realize immediately just how much was missing.

 

[Mincer]

Agreed. I think this is a fact that is over looked all too often. I know we were talking Gibsons, but, this is the reason that I prefer The PRS Custom 22 as opposed to the 24. That LITTLE bit of added distance between the bridge and the pickup makes a WORLD of difference. The 24 fret model just will never have that same warmth from the neck position due to the fact that it is closer to the bridge. I believe this is the same point you were making in regard to the difference between the Les Paul and SG. While I like a Custom 22, you could also take this a step further, and I could point out that this is one of the main reasons I prefer a Gibson Les Paul to pretty much anything else out there, because it's a 22 fret with just the right spacing between the bridge and pickup, and it does one better (as far as what I prefer) with the shorter 24.75 inch scale length.

It's a 22 fret and a 22 fret only for me, and I also very much prefer the 24.75 scale length.


There are alot of other possibilities here as well though. I also agree with the fact that the 300k pots are definitely going to have a pretty noticeable affect on tone compared to 500k pots. I personally prefer 500k pots only when it comes to a guitar with humbuckers. The only situation where I would consider a 300k pot on a humbucker would be in the case of something like my HSS Fender Stratocaster, in which I purposely use a 300k as a sort of middle ground between the 250k typically found in Strats and a 500k. This provides, as I said, a middle ground, where I compromise for the sake of having the best tone for a guitar with both humbuker and single coil pickups. While there are other factors that come into play here as well (many of the same that have been mentioned in this thread), I can tell you that I have the same humbucker in an Epiphone LP that I have in the bridge of my HSS Strat, and the difference is plenty noticeable between the two guitars.

Also, I've learned to never underestimate the role your strings play in the tone of your guitar. Dead strings equal dead tone, plain and simple. And if the strings on your SG are old, and, older than those on the LP, I would say that before I did anymore comparisons or anything else period, I would change the strings on BOTH guitars and see where that puts you. I never understood Locking tuners and bulk pack strings back in the day, but one day a lightbulb came on and suddenly they both made all the sense in the world. A new set of GREAT strings makes a guitar sound great. You'll notice a difference acoustically first, the guitar will just sound great on its own without being plugged in, but then you plug it in, and realize immediately just how much was missing.

Absolutely true. I spread that same message. But changing pots doesn't 'solve' this for me. For me, those pickups are simply in the wrong place, and they don't sound right unless they are moved.

 

[Ewizard]

The pots and the covers do in fact make a noticeable change. How much is a question mark, but I think on the same guitar, setup et all, a change of either one will be noticeable.

It ends there though. The covered set was designed and built that way, so the only thing that is next in line that can make an audible difference is the tone and volume pots. The 300k pots are going to be darker than 500k pots especially depending on the wiring. You can wire the tone pots up two different ways and one of the ways does make it sound a little darker. You may have heard of the 50's Les Paul wiring? That is one way, and then of course the modern way. The modern way is brighter. No telling if that is the scenario for you. However, switching to all 500k or even 1meg pots will help brighten up a dark sounding guitar quite well.

You can also remove the covers if that is a task you desire to remark upon? That will add a wee little bit of air and sparkle to the sound.

I don't think SG's are inherently darker. They have a thinner body and the bridge pickup is a little closer to the bridge, so it should be edgier if anything. I have an Epiphone SG and it sounds rather bright to me.

 

[freefrog]

Late in the party and the question has been answered by other members. Now and if I can throw in my two cents of indifferent data, just to share:

-the difference between covered and uncovered pickups is typically of 1dB to 1,5dB @ resonant peaks. Some pickups will be more affected than others (when their constructions give them secondary resonant peaks) and some covers will kill the high range more than others (when they are thick / cheap with too much copper in them);

-the difference between two 300k pots and two 500k pots with HB's plugged in a 1M input should be of almost 3dB @ resonant peaks;

-the presence of a cover dampens the attack a tiny wee bit and makes it a tiny tad slower (I've posted a pic about that in the last previous topic about covers);

-YMMV but I find personally difficult to compare modern and 50s wirings in a LP and in a SG. A LP hosts much more inner wire so the harness of a LP can be much more capacitive. Depending on the cables used to wire a guitar and to plug it in an amp, it can cause a difference drowing the nuances between modern and 50s wiring;

-IME of these last decades and IMHO, SG's are not dark... but "real" LP's (those with a thick maple cap rather than a veneer) are much fuller in the mids because of their construction. I clearly remember the incredible difference between a Seth Lover in a LP and the same Seth Lover in a SG then in a PRS copy (all with 500k pots). It was thick and nasally middy in the LP, soft and airy in the two others.

When I have to diminish such a dfifference, I use a frequency analyser and I test various LRC loads with the pickups. That's how I've made a Flying V tonally close to a LP. It's a long and tedious process.

In the case discussed here, pulling off the covers AND changing ALL 300k pots for 500k ones should certainly make a difference IMHO/ in my understanding, since it would bump resonant peaks of 4dB to 4.5dB and make the pick attack a wee bit (really just a tad) more immediate.

 

[alex1fly]

I'd be curious to hear what aftermarket pickup covers are best/least tone altering. Are certain brands more reputable than others, or is it more about the material content of the cover - i.e. no brass.

 

[freefrog]

I'd be curious to hear what aftermarket pickup covers are best/least tone altering. Are certain brands more reputable than others, or is it more about the material content of the cover - i.e. no brass.

Certain brands are more reputable (and their products more expensive) because of the materials of their covers. Throbak and Wizz come to my mind. Non limitative list.

That said, covers from mainstream brands are good enough for most of us...

The only thing to avoid IMHO is to purchase anonymous covers whose provenance and materials are not clear: some are expensive AND pretty bad. :-/