Effect of Scale vs number of frets on Neck pickup tone

[evh_slash]

I have a guitar with a 24.75 inch Gibson scale BUT has a whopping 24 frets... The other guitar has a 25.5" Fender scale BUT only has 22 frets .

I know that Longer Scale = Brighter Tone/Twang , but then again 24 frets would also cause the neck pickup to be a bit brighter & less boomy due to the PU physically being closer to the bridge.

Which of the 2 factors theoretically has the greater effect on the overall Brightness/Boomyness of the Neck PU position ? (The longer scale length or the extra 2 frets?)

 

[jmh151]

Re: Effect of Scale vs number of frets on Neck pickup tone

I have both - there’s many other factors such as the wood, the output of the neck pickup, materials, etc... just play both and see what you like best

 

[Mincer]

Re: Effect of Scale vs number of frets on Neck pickup tone

Generally, I think of it more like the distance between the pickup and the bridge. There is a 'right' place for me, and there is a place where it sounds off. Generally, 22 or 21 frets on either scale sounds correct to me. Otherwise, the neck pickup loses the 'throaty' character I like (and I use the neck pickup 80% of the time).

 

[freefrog]

Re: Effect of Scale vs number of frets on Neck pickup tone

I have a guitar with a 24.75 inch Gibson scale BUT has a whopping 24 frets... The other guitar has a 25.5" Fender scale BUT only has 22 frets .

I know that Longer Scale = Brighter Tone/Twang , but then again 24 frets would also cause the neck pickup to be a bit brighter & less boomy due to the PU physically being closer to the bridge.

Which of the 2 factors theoretically has the greater effect on the overall Brightness/Boomyness of the Neck PU position ? (The longer scale length or the extra 2 frets?)

Here is a tool for you, FWIW: http://www.till.com/articles/PickupResponseDemo/

 

[Teleplayer]

Re: Effect of Scale vs number of frets on Neck pickup tone

Here is a tool for you, FWIW: http://www.till.com/articles/PickupResponseDemo/

Looking at the chart, moving the neck pickup towards the bridge doesn't seem to improve the bassy problem. It will cause different filtering of mid frequencies depending where you play on the neck.
The 24-fret guitar can lose some important mid frequencies such as 2nd and 3rd harmonics, when you play in the range between 8th to 15th frets. That is probably where a lot of soloing takes place.
The same trouble occurs with a 22-fret guitar, but it would occur at a lower frequency range such as 5th-12th Frets. It appears to be a different trade off between 24-fret vs 22-fret guitars.
Please let me know if you agree with my analysis.

 

[Herby]

Re: Effect of Scale vs number of frets on Neck pickup tone

I have:
25.5 wt 22 frets, 3 SCs.
24.75 wt 24 frets 1 SC, 1 HB.
The pickup you use makes a big difference. SC or HB. It's a matter of what you like. Personally, for a 24.75 wt 24 frets I like only 2 pickups. A SC neck and a HB bridge. This works very well. The distance between the two is smaller and gives a nicer tone when run together with or without a split HB.
You get too much distance between pickups and you lose a lot of middle. Too little distance and you lose 'quack'.

 

[freefrog]

Re: Effect of Scale vs number of frets on Neck pickup tone

Looking at the chart, moving the neck pickup towards the bridge doesn't seem to improve the bassy problem. It will cause different filtering of mid frequencies depending where you play on the neck.
The 24-fret guitar can lose some important mid frequencies such as 2nd and 3rd harmonics, when you play in the range between 8th to 15th frets. That is probably where a lot of soloing takes place.
The same trouble occurs with a 22-fret guitar, but it would occur at a lower frequency range such as 5th-12th Frets. It appears to be a different trade off between 24-fret vs 22-fret guitars.
Please let me know if you agree with my analysis.

Sorry to reply so late: my free time is limited. :-/

Not much time to think about your statement either but at first glance, I don't disagree. Now, IMHO/IME , the width of the neck pickup used (or rather: the width of its magnetic windows) will have a much greater influence than it's location and/or the scale of the guitar. You can check it with the link mentioned in my previous answer: there's a box allowing to change the virtual width of the pickup (1 inch= a Tri-sonic; 0.7= a Strat PU; 1.5 = a humbucker; watch the spectrum obtained in each case).

FWIW.

 

[Jacew]

Re: Effect of Scale vs number of frets on Neck pickup tone

Sorry to reply so late: my free time is limited. :-/

Not much time to think about your statement either but at first glance, I don't disagree. Now, IMHO/IME , the width of the neck pickup used (or rather: the width of its magnetic windows) will have a much greater influence than it's location and/or the scale of the guitar. You can check it with the link mentioned in my previous answer: there's a box allowing to change the virtual width of the pickup (1 inch= a Tri-sonic; 0.7= a Strat PU; 1.5 = a humbucker; watch the spectrum obtained in each case).

FWIW.

Indeed.

I have strat with two SSL-1's side by side in humbucker neck slot. There's really no difference switching between those two pickups. Switch them in parallel and the tone goes less focused and darker.

 

[Teleplayer]

Re: Effect of Scale vs number of frets on Neck pickup tone

For my 22-fret strat style guitar I find all the notes played at 10th fret and higher sound fat and smooth using the neck humbucker with some overdrive applied. I can play D on the high-e string (10th fret) and it sounds almost the same as the D on the B string at 15th fret, when using the neck pickup. The same doesn't apply for lower notes, eg, A on the high-e at 5th fret sounds thinner than when played on the B string at 10th fret. My theory is something to do with reduced 3rd harmonic tone being sensed by the neck pickup in some positions on the fret board. When the 3rd harmonic is filtered out, its less likely to produce a smooth fat tone from an overdriven amp.

 

[oilpit]

Re: Effect of Scale vs number of frets on Neck pickup tone

Indeed.

I have strat with two SSL-1's side by side in humbucker neck slot. There's really no difference switching between those two pickups. Switch them in parallel and the tone goes less focused and darker.

But that coil is still going to be basically under the harmonic where the 24th fret would be, they sound basically the same because that distance isn’t enough to diminish the tone. With a 24 fret guitar it can never be even close to it because there will always be that fret directly under it, followed by some fretboard overhang and a pickup ring. That’s why neck pickups on 24 fret guitar sound so ass.

 

[dave74]

Re: Effect of Scale vs number of frets on Neck pickup tone

"Harmonic" position changes whenever you fret a note. Fretting a complex chord puts the harmonic position in all sorts of varying places (different for each string involved in the chord).

It's just a matter of bassier or treblier,,,,,rounder or sharper. (IMO)

 

[oilpit]

Re: Effect of Scale vs number of frets on Neck pickup tone

"Harmonic" position changes whenever you fret a note. Fretting a complex chord puts the harmonic position in all sorts of varying places (different for each string involved in the chord).

It's just a matter of bassier or treblier,,,,,rounder or sharper. (IMO)

I am fully ready to accept that the reasoning I gave is wrong, but I disagree that it's just a matter of bassier or treblier.

A bridge pickup with the tone rolled all the way down doesn't sound like a neck pickup and a single coil in the neck of a 21/22 fret Strat sounds much warmer than a humbucker on a 24 fret guitar, despite being much, much, brighter than any humbucker. It may not be the harmonic position, but there is (imo) a huge change for the worse in the sound of a neck pup with those extra frets.

 

[dave74]

Re: Effect of Scale vs number of frets on Neck pickup tone

I am fully ready to accept that the reasoning I gave is wrong, but I disagree that it's just a matter of bassier or treblier.

A bridge pickup with the tone rolled all the way down doesn't sound like a neck pickup and a single coil in the neck of a 21/22 fret Strat sounds much warmer than a humbucker on a 24 fret guitar, despite being much, much, brighter than any humbucker. It may not be the harmonic position, but there is (imo) a huge change for the worse in the sound of a neck pup with those extra frets.

True.
Bass/Treble isn't a good description, but rounder/sharper isn't bad.

I agree that the neck position sounds better being further away from the bridge,,,,,,,, fatter, warmer,rounder and more of a contrast to the bridge, hence the enhanced "range" when blending w/bridge.

 

[Rex_Rocker]

Re: Effect of Scale vs number of frets on Neck pickup tone

Somewhat OT, but how about the bridge position further away from the bridge itself? Kinda like how Jacksons are compared to ESP's and Ibanezes.

 

[Teleplayer]

Re: Effect of Scale vs number of frets on Neck pickup tone

Somewhat OT, but how about the bridge position further away from the bridge itself? Kinda like how Jacksons are compared to ESP's and Ibanezes.

I think that once you start to move to less that 4" from the saddles (closer than the middle pickup), you get more significant drop in bass response from the pickup. Increasingly so as you get to around 1.5" like a typical bridge pickup.

 

[dave74]

Re: Effect of Scale vs number of frets on Neck pickup tone

Somewhat OT, but how about the bridge position further away from the bridge itself? Kinda like how Jacksons are compared to ESP's and Ibanezes.

Are they really different distances or are you just seeing direct-mount vs ring-mounted? (creates the illusion of more distance)
I've never noticed a difference between brands except for the angled pickups like on old Kramers.

 

[beaubrummels]

Re: Effect of Scale vs number of frets on Neck pickup tone

Generally, I think of it more like the distance between the pickup and the bridge. There is a 'right' place for me, and there is a place where it sounds off. Generally, 22 or 21 frets on either scale sounds correct to me. Otherwise, the neck pickup loses the 'throaty' character I like (and I use the neck pickup 80% of the time).

This has generally been my experience also, though I don’t play the neck 80% of the time. I do use the mid position between 2 humbuckers most of the time, so the neck character factors heavy for me.