Electric guitars need to sound good acoustically to sound good plugged in...

Lewguitar

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True or false?

This was posted by Bill Lawrence in response to a post on the TDPRI.




"This thread just caught my attention, and I can’t believe what I see. It reminds me of the violent arguments some people of a small kingdom had about the color of the new king’s beard. Finally, the king arrives, and guess what – the king had no beard!

Actually, what I see here is an argument about the validity of Isaac Newton’s Third Law of Motion: For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Let me assure you, both the acoustic and the electric guitar are subject to the same basic laws of physics, though their final functions are different.

The vibrating strings transmit the signal via the bridge to the top of the guitar. Now, we have to apply the laws of elastic collision to determine the propagation of longitudinal waves in various media. The elastic properties and the mass of the body Vs. the mass and the tension of the vibrating strings determine the quantity of energy that is used to vibrate the air. Make a simple test -- take two identical low E strings, put one of them on an acoustic guitar and the other one on a Tele and tune both strings to a low E. When you play both strings with the same force, you will see that the string on the Tele has a much greater amplitude than the string on the acoustic guitar. As a result, an identical pickup would not only generate a much higher voltage but also a different harmonic spectrum on the Tele, resulting in a totally different tone.

Each part of the guitar will cause an opposite reaction on the vibrating strings,and this is precisely what a pickup will sense. There are always the same questions like “what gauge of strings do you prefer.” I select my gauges to compliment the guitar. I have one Tele that sounds the best with .009s and another Tele that requires .011s to sound right.

Now let me address the subject of this thread – solid body guitars are not designed to move air, and therefore, I cannot tell you how a guitar will sound amplified just by listening to the acoustic properties. Also, the differences in vibrations are too minute to detect by touch. Most, but not all, guitars that are acoustically loud are poor performers when amplified and some guitars that sound fat and sweet acoustically can sound amplified thin and edgy. Judging a guitar by its weight is not an issue either. All that counts is the resonance of all its component parts assembled as a total.

There is a way to check out the tone of a guitar by its acoustic sound. I’ve been using this method for 60 years and not yet failed to select the right guitar, but you have to know what to listen for: I lay the guitar on my shoulder so it barely touches my ear. Then I scratch softly with one of my fingernails across the strings near the nut and listen to the harmonic spectrum up to the sizzling highs.

If anybody knows a better method, please let me know.

Bill"
 
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Re: Electric guitars need to sound good acoustically to sound good plugged in...

This seems a little out there, listening to the sound of your finger scratching the strings with the guitar on your shoulder...

I mean, the man was much more successful that I will ever be in that particular area of expertise.

But, in my experience, the acoustic sound of an electric guitar can tell you a lot (but not everything) about how it will sound amplified, given what pickups it uses. I know both my strat and my jazzmaster are fairly resonant the only difference being the strat sounds much fatter plugged in than acoustically. My tele acoustically and plugged in sounds very rich and musical. The JD bridge helps though I'm sure.

Just out of curiosity, how would one go about "testing" a guitar as described in the post? Scratching tends to result in a lot of high frequencies I thought.
 
Re: Electric guitars need to sound good acoustically to sound good plugged in...

Once you have played enough guitars unplugged/plugged, you get an idea what they will sound like amplified.

If good / resonant sound unplugged was required to sound good plugged, then Basswood guitars would not sound good plugged in. 99.9999% of the time, mahogony sounds better than Basswood unplugged, but when plugged you find its not as focused or balanced.

I would lay a bet that the same people who tell you that unplugged resonance equals amplified tone can't competently sweep arpeggios. Once one becomes an elite lead player his tonal needs change and the things he spends his time worrying about also change.
 
Re: Electric guitars need to sound good acoustically to sound good plugged in...

Once you have played enough guitars unplugged/plugged, you get an idea what they will sound like amplified.

If good / resonant sound unplugged was required to sound good plugged, then Basswood guitars would not sound good plugged in. 99.9999% of the time, mahogony sounds better than Basswood unplugged, but when plugged you find its not as focused or balanced.

I would lay a bet that the same people who tell you that unplugged resonance equals amplified tone can't competently sweep arpeggios. Once one becomes an elite lead player his tonal needs change and the things he spends his time worrying about also change.

Again these types of topics are way too subjective..In the equations also..string type,pick or no pick..Type of hardware,rosewood or maple neck..When you plug into an amp..Pickup types,cable..Too many variables really..Basswood,alder,mahogany,poplar,etc...every one of my strats sound different,especially when plugged in.

In most cases I've been able to get the right pickups,hardware etc.to try to bring around what I feel is lacking in said guitar..I've had some real duds also that I've sold..LOL..

I'm sold on listening to an acoustic guitar,but not sold on say a solid body strat in this equation.
 
Re: Electric guitars need to sound good acoustically to sound good plugged in...

I don't play my electric guitars unplugged, so I don't care how they sound un-amplified.
 
Re: Electric guitars need to sound good acoustically to sound good plugged in...

One of my first thoughts was every guitar you consider buying should be played in as many ways as you will use it and you like before walking out the door with it.

That said you should also know that the brand you are buying, say from 1500 miles away, is a brand and product level you know well or have researched and trust unless you have been playing a long time and have an idea of what to expect. I'm pretty sure almost every Hamer I seal a deal on sight unseen will sound good. I have only gotten a couple bad ones but they had/have issues I knew about but took a chance on. Buyer not only beware but Be Aware. :9:
 
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Re: Electric guitars need to sound good acoustically to sound good plugged in...

I remember when I bought my ES-335 in the parking lot of a McDonalds 100 miles from where I live. Bruce knew the seller so we agreed to meet half way between Boulder CO and Grand Junction CO where the seller lived.

I loved it from the first strum. From the first note. Bought it on the spot and didn't plug it in until I got back home.

My favorite Fender guitars get played constantly - but unplugged.

I don't plug in much at home. I plug in sometimes at home, but most of my guitars get played unplugged and I write most of my new songs unplugged.

My favorites are those that sound great unplugged and sound just as good plugged in. If they don't match that criteria, I don't keep them long.

I just thought Bill Lawrence's comments would be interesting. I don't agree with him 100%.

Bill was a great guy and created some great sounding pickups that really spoke to some players.
 
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Re: Electric guitars need to sound good acoustically to sound good plugged in...

Funny enough one of my favorite guitars when plugged in (A Robin Machete) sounds like butt when unplugged. I have a few others like this too. I have one of the paisley strats from the late 80's unplugged it sounds very toothy with a strong fundamental note and no harmonics or resonance but when plugged in that guitar is just so lively and balanced. Then I have a acrylic green BC Rich Mockingbird. It sounds dead and lifeless unplugged and dead and lifeless plugged in. Ive had at the very least 8 different pickups in it. Now it has EMG81's for no other reason then it sounds acceptable plugged in with high gain like this. Low gain... No way

Its always nice when a guitar sounds great unplugged but i dont think its necessary.
 
Re: Electric guitars need to sound good acoustically to sound good plugged in...

I am going to check out my guitars using Bill's method - just to see:

"There is a way to check out the tone of a guitar by its acoustic sound. I’ve been using this method for 60 years and not yet failed to select the right guitar, but you have to know what to listen for: I lay the guitar on my shoulder so it barely touches my ear. Then I scratch softly with one of my fingernails across the strings near the nut and listen to the harmonic spectrum up to the sizzling highs."
 
Re: Electric guitars need to sound good acoustically to sound good plugged in...

I don't know. I mean, on one hand, from the moment I started playing guitar I had the luck to hang out with some top class guitar players who had some serious gear (Andersons, PRS, Custom Shop Gibsons, Fender...including some 50s Teles) and great ears. They always said to me that it has to sound good unplugged in order for it to sound good plugged in. So, I just took it as sound advice (no pun intended).

However, as I've grown as a player and my ear-brain connection has started to develop a notion of what it thinks is a good guitar sound (which might suck to someone else), I've sort of realized it's not always true. Which is why I decided to learn more about pickups, electronics, pedals and amplifiers. You know, the other stuff that changes the timbre of a guitar.

I think a huge reason why is that the tones we think are great on an acoustic don't always translate to an electric tone and vice versa. Big chunk of mahogany style guitars can sound dull unplugged but that's what makes them big booty phat plugged in. That's also why I feel Fender style guitars can sound great unplugged, they're bright and lively. That can translate to some ear splitting sonic tomahawk tones. If it really was true, most tonehounds would be playing Taylor 814ces or Martin OM-28s through Fenders or Marshalls.
 
Re: Electric guitars need to sound good acoustically to sound good plugged in...

I generally think this is BS, however a good number of really bad guitars have a fizzly sustain acoustically. The sustain "falls apart" instead of "staying together".

On the other hand, acoustically loud and "resonant" solid bodies are usually turds for my needs.
 
Re: Electric guitars need to sound good acoustically to sound good plugged in...

Funny enough one of my favorite guitars when plugged in (A Robin Machete) sounds like butt when unplugged.

Its always nice when a guitar sounds great unplugged but i dont think its necessary.

I do. I don't own a single electric guitar that doesn't sound good unplugged or which isn't fun to play acoustically.

Don't know if that makes me disagree with Bill or not. I liked Bill, although I never kept any of his pickups. Probably because I like pickups that sound like vintage 50's and 60's pickups and he, being the super intelligent creative guy he was, was always trying to come up with something better.
 
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Re: Electric guitars need to sound good acoustically to sound good plugged in...

I do. I don't own a single electric guitar that doesn't sound good unplugged or which isn't fun to play acoustically.

Don't know if that makes me disagree with Bill or not. I liked Bill, although I never kept any of his pickups. Probably because I like pickups that sound like vintage 50's and 60's pickups and he, being the super intelligent creative guy he was, was always trying to come up with something better.

Lew, I am going to have to agree with you. Any of my "keepers" all sound fantastic unplugged. Call me crazy and I don't know if you can prove an EXACT correlation between an electric sounding great unplugged translated to a great amped up sound; but that has always been the case with my experiences.
 
Re: Electric guitars need to sound good acoustically to sound good plugged in...

The acoustic tone of a guitar doesn't make a significant difference to me, but the sustain and resonant properties are. I have never seen a single guitar that had poor sustain unplugged but was somehow changed once plugged into an amp. The higher the pickup output and the more gain you use, the less important the tonal characteristics of the guitar/wood actually are.
 
Re: Electric guitars need to sound good acoustically to sound good plugged in...

Over years of owning and trying different stuff, I've found no correlation between the quality of the unplugged tone to the quality of the plugged in tone. I've had some guitars unplugged that sounded thick and warm and plugged in sounded dull and muddy. I've had some guitars sound really loud and exciting unplugged and plugged in were really thin, weak and strident. My only electric has a medium projection to it, it's balanced sounding and plugged in sounds the best out of any one I've ever owned. It's all over the map AFAIC.
 
Re: Electric guitars need to sound good acoustically to sound good plugged in...

I'm inclined to agree with this insomuch as a player like myself who's been slowhanded all his life so he puts a lot into his notes. I like low-output pickups more often than not, and when I'm amplified I really feel a connection to the playing when the amp sounds like it's just making the vibrations of the guitar louder in a really visceral and noticeable way.

It was a little different when I played around with a shredstick. I think it was an Ibanez, but it felt less like an electroacoustical instrument and more like a purpose-built note A>B applicator. In that situation, with active output into hi gain amps with signal pampering effects in front and behind, I don't think it matters what you're materials are. Might as well play MIDI.
 
Re: Electric guitars need to sound good acoustically to sound good plugged in...

I hold the guitar between my index finger and thumb as if it were haning on a hook at Guitar Center. Then I strum it with my free and and then lower it down onto a wooden desk or table. I am most apt to bond with one that gets louder as soon as that rear strap button hits the wood.

One that does that will also come alive in my hands when I play it and I know the amplified sound will have content pickups alone can never provide.
 
Re: Electric guitars need to sound good acoustically to sound good plugged in...

Again these types of topics are way too subjective..In the equations also..string type,pick or no pick..Type of hardware,rosewood or maple neck..When you plug into an amp..Pickup types,cable..Too many variables really..Basswood,alder,mahogany,poplar,etc...every one of my strats sound different,especially when plugged in.

In most cases I've been able to get the right pickups,hardware etc.to try to bring around what I feel is lacking in said guitar..I've had some real duds also that I've sold..LOL..

I'm sold on listening to an acoustic guitar,but not sold on say a solid body strat in this equation.

Isn't the subjective part of it the whole point? Your connection to an instrument is entirely subjective. Nobody said there are quantifiable "numbers" on this sort of thing, but if you play long enough, you can easily spot the ones that "work" for you playing them without plugging them in. All this stuff we discuss on here, and the words we use to describe tones and feelings and sounds are entirely subjective.

Bill can make a great pickup, and that's not at issue here, but I see it as the Dumble problem. "Fragile harmonics can’t survive in a solid state crystal lattice..." It's all mumbo jumbo and voodoo talk, honestly. When it comes right down to it, if it sounds good, it is good.
 
Re: Electric guitars need to sound good acoustically to sound good plugged in...

Just a few additional notes - I agree that a guitar that sounds good unplugged and plugged in is pretty nice. That being said I had a schecter c1 e/a that sounded great unplugged (probably because it was full hollow body lol) but I didn't care for plugged in, probably because (1) it came with a duncan designed jazz/jb set, IMO wrong for that style of guitar, and (2) I had replaced those with mean 90s, but the wiring job as I found when I sold the guitar was incorrect, one of the things that led me to learn how to wire guitars myself.

Also, the neck was too thin. Anyway, I've noticed that hardware has a huge effect on the acoustic sound of a guitar - my les paul got noticeably louder acoustically once I got the locking stop tailpiece studs (still using the stock zinc tailpiece IIRC), and my strat felt different under the fingers after I installed a callaham block. My tele has had both a bigsby and a generic 3-brass saddle ashtray, and even though there was a considerable delay in changing from the bigsby back to the ashtray, as I recall the bigsby had more sustain, but less of that telecaster sound. The acoustic sustain isn't what you would call great right now (nowhere near my only other non-tremolo, my les paul), but the guitar is lively nonetheless. Like I said in an earlier post (probably in a different thread), it's my #1 and I don't see that changing anytime soon.

My least played guitar is my formerly 12-stringed acoustic, and that's only because it's a 12-string that I converted to a 6-string and now it feels kind of odd to play.
 
Re: Electric guitars need to sound good acoustically to sound good plugged in...

Over years of owning and trying different stuff, I've found no correlation between the quality of the unplugged tone to the quality of the plugged in tone. I've had some guitars unplugged that sounded thick and warm and plugged in sounded dull and muddy. I've had some guitars sound really loud and exciting unplugged and plugged in were really thin, weak and strident. My only electric has a medium projection to it, it's balanced sounding and plugged in sounds the best out of any one I've ever owned. It's all over the map AFAIC.

Thick and warm, plugged in dull and muddy. Loud and exciting, thin plugged in. This sounds somewhat obvious, but pickups just bring out what it already there. They are passive devices, they cannot add, only take away. It follows exactly what I would expect from such an assessment of a guitar in this manner...
 
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