Experimental stack/humbucker idea

[Gabrielinconfident]

Hi folks. I’m thinking of doing something a little different, and thought I’d run it by the forum first.

1: Is the Custom Staggered Strat the same as the Custom Flat Strat, except for the height of the pole pieces?
2: The STK-S6 has the same coil design as the SSL-5, correct?
3, and most important: if I put an STK-S6 and a RWRP SSL-5 side-by-side in a humbucker cavity, and install a mini switch, would it be possible to flip back and forth between a noiseless single coil sound, and a humbucker one? Basically, split the stack, but connect it in series with the SSL-5.
Finally, if this is possible, how would I wire it?

Ibanez at one point created a 3-coil pickup where one of the coils was under the 1st, but they stopped making it quite early. Not sure if it had issues, or if it just didn’t sell. The idea obviously is to be able to split a humbucker, but never have hum. If it’s possible to also use both pickups in parallel, that would be a bonus, but it’s not the priority at all.

 

[freefrog]

Hello,

If memory serves me, the EMG81TW is more or less an active version of what you want to do.

Now...

-a noiseless stack is often not a simple single coil with a noise sensing bobbin under it: dimensions and geometry of parts tend to differ, with a potential effect on the ability to cancel the hum...

-two single coils in series don't make a humbucker in the usual meaning of the word: rod mags have a stronger magnetism, they give to the coils a higher Q factor, etc.;

-magnetic interactions between coils can be tricky to master. Hence the use of magnetic shields, "reflectors" or couplers, with a risk of Foucault currents, squealing due to magnetically induced vibrations and so on...

Non limitative list (I've not evoked capacitive coupling, for instance). It doesn't mean nor suggest that your idea can't work. I'm just stating that a few overlooked phenomenons might interfere with your goal.

Good luck in your experiments.

 

[Gabrielinconfident]

Hello,
If memory serves me, the EMG81TW is more or less an active version of what you want to do.

Yeah I hate EMGs with my entire soul. They’re great if you like overly compressed treble and no other frequencies
Plus, I don’t want to use batteries on my guitar if it’s not for a Sustainiac or something other than just pickups.

-a noiseless stack is often not a simple single coil with a noise sensing bobbin under it: dimensions and geometry of parts tend to differ, with a potential effect on the ability to cancel the hum...

Yeah I know, but I don’t know enough about how they actually work. That’s why I’m asking the forum, because not only I might have to order custom shop pickups (it’s for a 7-string), but I’ll have to mod the guitar so that they fit. I thought about using the Triple Shot rings, but (as far as I know) they don’t make them for 7-string guitars, and I don’t even know if that would work. But maybe the CS could match the 3 coils in a better way than just the stock versions…?

What I do know is that, if it is to work, the top coil of the stack would be connected directly to the pickup switch so it’s “always on” when the neck position is selected, but the bottom coil and SSL would be connected to a mini-toggle or push/pull pot in order to switch between them. Right? Am I missing something? Also, I don’t know what colour wire is what coil

 

[beaubrummels]

I don't believe Fender single coil types will fit in a triple shot or humbucker rings. Fender single types have the tabs for mounting built in to the cover and the baseplate, which makes the pickup longer than a humbucker coil. You'd have to just about destroy the pickup to get it to humbucker coil size, then you still would have to figure out a way to mount it. Fender single types the coil is wrapped around the poles, there isn't any bobbin, so you couldn't just screw them onto a baseplate.

 

[Gabrielinconfident]

I don't believe Fender single coil types will fit in a triple shot or humbucker rings. Fender single types have the tabs for mounting built in to the cover and the baseplate, which makes the pickup longer than a humbucker coil. You'd have to just about destroy the pickup to get it to humbucker coil size, then you still would have to figure out a way to mount it. Fender single types the coil is wrapped around the poles, there isn't any bobbin, so you couldn't just screw them onto a baseplate.

So the guitar is a 7-string, and it originally had EMGs in their gigantic soapbar format. I’m going to have all the paint removed, the pickup route filled with wood and redone, then repaint everything, i.e. I can fit whatever I want in it. Originally I was going to just put a regular stack in there, but if this idea is feasible (with a pp pot or mini-toggle), I’ll consider doing it instead. If it’s not, then I’ll just change it from humbucker to single coil size and put an STK-6. I’m fine with only having a noiseless single coil tone in the neck position, but I also always like to explore all my options before committing to anything.

 

[playas]

If you're going to go custom shop, why not just ask if they can design the whole thing?

 

[freefrog]

It's possible to put Fender style pickups in a HB frame IME. Sure, it requires to be careful.

Not enough time for the moment to draw a diagram and no STK at disposal to check the wiring anyway. Sorry about that. More later maybe.
But any basic DMM would give an answer in a few seconds regarding how the coils are connected.

The most tricky part of a proper wiring schematic in such a case might be in how the unused coil of the STK must be disabled/shorted in order to avoid some unexpected loading effects... Again, more later IF time permits.

Ho, and... I've never recommended the EMG81TW. Was just stating that it's a 3 coils model.

 

[Gabrielinconfident]

If you're going to go custom shop, why not just ask if they can design the whole thing?

Because I prefer going to the CS with the full design in mind. Here we have hundreds of minds thinking together. And who knows, maybe if SD sees that more people are interested, they’d make it an actual model, even if it’s special order. It has happened before.

 

[Gabrielinconfident]

Again, more later IF time permits.

I’d be very grateful. Whenever you can. I’m not an engineer or anything, I’m just very curious, so I can understand explanations, but not identify problems or come up with solutions.

Ho, and... I've never recommended the EMG81TW. Was just stating that it's a 3 coils model.

I know XD
I had added emojis and it deleted them. I didn’t think you were recommending it, and I was just venting/joking about how EMG shouldn’t exist as a company.

 

[freefrog]

Ok, here is my take.

Drain from stack to ground. Nothing special here.

White wire from the stack to main switch (PU selector). Again, nothing special.

Red wire to the upper pole(s) of a DPDT switch (ON/ON).

On center lug(s) of the DPDT: black wire from the stack AND white wire from the RWRP SSL single coil (this white wire being pictured in light purple below).

On botton lug(s) of the DPDT switch: black wire from the SSL single coil (pictured in brown below) AND a wire going to ground.



Which gives...

In position 1 of the DPDT: red wire of the stack connected directly to black wire of the stack, shorting its noise sensing coil. So the red wire goes directly through the RWRP single coil to ground. =side by side humbucking mode.

In position 2 of the DPDT: black wire of the stack + white wire of the single coil connected directly to the black wire of the single coil, itself connected to ground. The single coil is shorted but the noise sensing coil of the stack is active. = stacked humbucker mode.

Shorting the unused coils by closing them on themselves (instead of leaving them open) is the best way to avoid any parasitic capacitive load or magnetic coupling causing an alteration of the signal...

FWIW: done on a hurry by a busy and tired old fart (=me). To take accordingly : with a grain of salt and as something subject to change without notice, if ever I realize that I was sharing BS...

 

[Gabrielinconfident]

Ok, here is my take.

Thank you! I’ll run this by the Custom Shop when I order the pickups. It might take a little while, but I’ll try to remember to make a video demo if it all works out.

 

[Clint 55]

If you're going to go custom shop, you might think of getting the true single coil underwound since you'll only be using it in series, and neck position? I've put a 3k lipstick in series with another pup for good effect. You might think about getting it underwound somewhere around 3, 4, or 5k.

 

[Gabrielinconfident]

If you're going to go custom shop, you might think of getting the true single coil underwound since you'll only be using it in series, and neck position? I've put a 3k lipstick in series with another pup for good effect. You might think about getting it underwound somewhere around 3, 4, or 5k.

I’ll ask them to match the coils as well as possible, for the best hum cancelling. I want high output overall, hence why I’m profiling it after the STK-6. But if I tell them exactly what I’m doing with them, I’ll leave it up to them to decide what to do with the single coil. You’re right, I’m never going to use it by itself, so it doesn’t matter what it sounds like on its own. But precisely for that reason, the main concern is that it matches the top coil of the stack, and doesn’t leave a ton of noise through.

The only thing you just made me consider is, maaaaaybe, using alnico II rods in the single coil, with the stack being alnico V. That would make either sound very distinct. Stack would be snappy, glassy, and tubular, while the humbucker would be softer, mellower, and more velvety. Hm. I’m gonna have to think about this.

 

[freefrog]

Even if you want it powerful... +1 on what Clint said: a SSL5 alone has already almost the inductance of a P90. Twice this value in a series circuit increasing itself mutual inductance would end on a very powerful and dark humbucker : probably in the 10 or 12H range, which is more than with a Hot Rails bridge, a DiMarzio X2N or a Bill Lawrence L500XL, and typically way too much for a neck PU...

I've a guitar with P90's feeding a properly spec'ed noise cancelling dummy coil. The overall inductance of all these coils in series was around 15H and made the tone incredibly dark. I had to mount a dummy resistor + inductor in parallel with the whole, in order to aleviate a bit the overall inductance and bring back some clarity...

Again, FWIW.

 

[Mincer]

So, essentially a Stag Mag, but each pickup is a stack? This is certainly Custom Shop stuff, as they'd have to get those coils to fit on a humbucker baseplate.

 

[Gabrielinconfident]

Even if you want it powerful... +1 on what Clint said: a SSL5 alone has already almost the inductance of a P90.

Not disagreeing. When I say “matched coils” I don’t necessarily mean “cloned coils”, but “whatever is the best design for full hum cancelling”. Maybe the ideal would be to make the stack a little less powerful. My description will be something like “a high output, alnico V stack to be used in the neck position, alongside an SH5 in the bridge, and an alnico II single coil that cancels the hum of the top coil of the stack”. Then just wait and see what they come up with.

What do you think?

 

[Gabrielinconfident]

So, essentially a Stag Mag, but each pickup is a stack? This is certainly Custom Shop stuff, as they'd have to get those coils to fit on a humbucker baseplate.

No. Only one is a stack. There’s no need for 4 coils, in fact it would probably make it sound muffled and weird. What I want is to have an actual regular humbucker, but when I split it, it doesn’t hum. I only need one extra dummy coil for that. The push/pull would switch between the A2, and the dummy coils.

 

[Mincer]

No. Only one is a stack. There’s no need for 4 coils, in fact it would probably make it sound muffled and weird. What I want is to have an actual regular humbucker, but when I split it, it doesn’t hum. I only need one extra dummy coil for that. The push/pull would switch between the A2, and the dummy coils.

Oh gotcha. Could you wire the dummy coil into the circuit and leave that coil somewhere else in the cavity (sort of like Ernie Ball's Silent Circuit).

 

[Clint 55]

I think you should predetermine how much wire you want on each pup. Unless you're clueless, which you aren't lol. If you want input from them, then give them a call and talk it over. Imo, it's your pickup, get it the way you want it. This design will probably require a phone call anyway.

My experience with output: I've once tried 2 ssl1s in series in the neck and a ssl5 and ssl4 in series in the bridge. It was fat. However I didn't put the ssl5/4 in the neck. If you want it ridiculously fat then go for it. I'm all for excessive output but you might want to dial it back a bit.

 

[Gabrielinconfident]

Oh gotcha. Could you wire the dummy coil into the circuit and leave that coil somewhere else in the cavity (sort of like Ernie Ball's Silent Circuit).

I have no idea. Maybe freefrog should answer this one.