Fathead ?

Re: Fathead ?

Hey, for free? I'd try it.

;)

Personally I'd try the fat fingers first, see it the added mass give you what you want, then add it. I wonder how they are attached, is it by the tuner screws? And what about different shapes?
 
Re: Fathead ?

I doubt that you will notice any difference.

Before squandering cash on gimmicks (especially one made by someone who says things like "more overtones", like that was a good thing; see my post here https://forum.seymourduncan.com/showthread.php?t=112612)

I would check first that your tuners aren't loose and that the string is wrapped correctly as nothing will dissipate resonant energy as fast as a bad string wrap. Then make sure that the guitar is set up properly; no more than about 10 thou (about 0.25 mm) relief and the action not too low (minimum of 1.25mm at the 12th top E, 1,5 mm 12th, low E).

Remember if you have a tremelo bridge you have a set of shock absorbers attached to the bridge in the form of tremelo springs. The effect of this will be to absorb energy from the strings at each vibration cycle. Maximising the mass of the bridge helps to damp this effect and maximise sustain. The string will naturally sustain less above the 12th fret anyway as the stiffness of the string comes into play and the string's linear mass has to overcome the energy dissipation associated with the resistance offered by the bending moment of the string's partials.
 
Re: Fathead ?

I think it's mostly hype, but that device does do something.

One of the ways to increase sustain is make the anchor points of the strings more resistant to being moved. With more mass comes more inertia, i.e. more resistance to being moved. Therefore I do think this item increases sustain. However, it's a guess because I'd have to try it, and using precision test equipment to verify their claims. So, for right now, to me it's just marketing hype.

And yes, this is one of the reasons I started reading up on engineering related topics.
 
Re: Fathead ?

@ Octavedoctor:

Well, tuners are tightly screwed (grovers) and the strings are wrapped with minimum turns, heading to nut from the lowest possible peg point in order to make stronger pressure on nut. I`ve been told long ago that is the proper way of stringing, so I never tried other ways. Tailpiece is lowered, practicaly there is a tight coupling with a guitar body (mahogany with 5/8 maple cap).

What actually bugs me is this thick and short, dull sound of all notes played on frets below the neckjoint, all the frets which have the body under. I understand that short string must have shorter sustain, but this really sounds thicker and shorter than my other guitars.

I ran onto this Fathead, and after i read this (which i`ll quote now) i thought it could help:

You pluck the string near the bridge, and the disturbance of the
string goes rushing up the neck, and rebounds from the nut, then it
comes back to the bridge and bounces again, and so on, so that the
oscillation produces a note.
(that's one way of looking at the physics of vibration of a string)
So when the pluck reaches the nut, it trys to move the nut, which is
held in place by the inertia of the headstock. If the nut moves, then
some of the string energy is lost, so it can't bounce back to the bridge.
So by making the headstock heavier, you can improve the sustain of
the guitar, because less energy is lost.

As it happens, it's easier for low frequencies to move the headstock
(the high frequencies don't give it as much time to get moving). So a
heavier headstock can make the guitar more bassy, and can give an
electric bass a more solid sound.
Click to expand...



It sounded quite rational, but after your link, i guess i should replace the stock plastic nut to bone nut first. Maybe even saddles too.
Do you think that could help more than anything else?

And yes, this is a new guitar and some people are convincing me that every guitar needs some time (at least 6 months of playing) to sit and "find its tone and sustain". What do you say?

Thanks for reply ;)

LSP said:
I wonder how they are attached, is it by the tuner screws? And what about different shapes?
Click to expand...
Could be by tuner screws, but i never saw it. Honestly, I just want to understand the "mass oh neadstock" concept, and if it makes sense, i would make a shaped plate by myself, but as i said, i prefer to find some other solution to this problem.
 
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Re: Fathead ?

Eddie J. said:
@ Octavedoctor:

Well, tuners are tightly screwed (grovers) and the strings are wrapped with minimum turns, heading to nut from the lowest possible peg point in order to make stronger pressure on nut. I`ve been told long ago that is the proper way of stringing, so I never tried other ways. Tailpiece is lowered, practicaly there is a tight coupling with a guitar body (mahogany with 5/8 maple cap).
Click to expand...

That's correct, except i'd say optimum rather than minimum. i feel the wrap should be deep enough to cover the spindle eye.

Eddie J. said:
What actually bugs me is this thick and short, dull sound of all notes played on frets below the neckjoint, all the frets which have the body under. I understand that short string must have shorter sustain, but this really sounds thicker and shorter than my other guitars.

I ran onto this Fathead, and after i read this (which i`ll quote now) i thought it could help:





It sounded quite rational, but after your link, i guess i should replace the stock plastic nut to bone nut first. Maybe even saddles too.
Do you think that could help more than anything else?



Thanks for reply ;)


Could be by tuner screws, but i never saw it. Honestly, I just want to understand the "mass oh neadstock" concept, and if it makes sense, i would make a shaped plate by myself, but as i said, i prefer to find some other solution to this problem.
Click to expand...

The quote from Fathead is bang on the money, absolutely correct, and a very good explanation of the dynamics involved; the more mass you have at each end of the string the less energy is absorbed at each vibration cycle. And people tend to forget that part of the harmonic spectrum is encoded in the cyclic fluctuations in tension which, unlike the displacements in the X and Y planes which we can see, are invisible. However these cyclic tensile vibrations are mostly responsible for the high end harmonics so I would expect increased tuner mass to improve harmonic retention, but the larger displacements are driven primarily by the "mainspring" effect of the rebound from the nut and bridge so as long as the tuners are tight, stable and properly wrapped I would expect the minimum of difference in the overall sustain and a much greater effect from increasing the mass of the bridge.

It's like the difference between additive and subtractive synthesis; you can't increase sustain or harmonic content by adding mass, you can however minimise its loss.

And yes, changing the nut for a better material will help (as long as it's cut properly) but remember that some plastics are good; that the nut is hard not soft is the important thing so brittle phenol based plastics can be quite good as can synthetic resin based materials like corian while ABS based ones as used by POS (sorry, PRS, don't know why I keep doing that) and Warwick *spits to clear taste of name from mouth* are junk.

Eddie J. said:
And yes, this is a new guitar and some people are convincing me that every guitar needs some time (at least 6 months of playing) to sit and "find its tone and sustain". What do you say?
Click to expand...

I'm reminded of a cartoon once showing a sign on a shop window. The shop was one of these "new age" places specialising in crystal healing, angel power, tarot cards etc. The sign said "Vagueness spoken here".

Sounds like that to me...

It's like when you go into a music shop with your strings on your new guitar fretting out on the first four frets. They take it downstairs and bring it back a few minutes later and it's exactly the same. "Ah they say, but it takes a few days for the neck to respond to the change in the truss rod adjustment"

Yeah, right...
 
Re: Fathead ?

octavedoctor said:
It's like the difference between additive and subtractive synthesis; you can't increase sustain or harmonic content by adding mass, you can however minimise its loss.
Click to expand...
Great point. Thanks for that.

as long as the tuners are tight, stable and properly wrapped I would expect the minimum of difference in the overall sustain and a much greater effect from increasing the mass of the bridge.
Click to expand...
Well, if i remove metal bridge saddles, I am also removing mass from it. Probably the density plays a role, cause I`m sure that bone saddles are lighter. Do you recommend that swap or i should install the bone nut only, and leave the saddles. Bridge is non locking MIK Sung II. It has some decent weight, doesn`t feel cheap, but i`m not an expert.

And yes, changing the nut for a better material will help (as long as it's cut properly) but remember that some plastics are good; that the nut is hard not soft is the important thing so brittle phenol based plastics can be quite good as can synthetic resin based materials like corian while ABS based ones as used by POS (sorry, PRS, don't know why I keep doing that) and Warwick *spits to clear taste of name from mouth* are junk.
Click to expand...
How can i recognize phenol plastic from ABS based? This guitar is Dean, and the nut is black plastic, pretty wide and big, actually it looks pretty much like nuts on PRS SE models. Here it is.
 
Re: Fathead ?

i didn't read thru all of these posts but anytime i've had a guitar with poor sustian in the upper frets it has been from either high frets or just plain fretting out from a sharp board radius and or the strings being too low to the fingerboard....

and also the neck pickup being too close to the strings can effect sustain up there greater as the strings when pushed to fret them are closer to the pickup then when playing farther down the neck...

I'd look the axe over and make sure it is set up right and lower the neck pickup and see if it helps
 
Re: Fathead ?

WhoFan said:
i didn't read thru all of these posts but anytime i've had a guitar with poor sustian in the upper frets it has been from either high frets or just plain fretting out from a sharp board radius and or the strings being too low to the fingerboard....

and also the neck pickup being too close to the strings can effect sustain up there greater as the strings when pushed to fret them are closer to the pickup then when playing farther down the neck...

I'd look the axe over and make sure it is set up right and lower the neck pickup and see if it helps
Click to expand...

None of it, bro. Action is very high, there`s no fret rattling at all. 12" Radius isn`t that sharp, and the neck pickup is flat with its ring cover.

Thanks anyway ;)
 
Re: Fathead ?

Eddie J. said:
Great point. Thanks for that.


Well, if i remove metal bridge saddles, I am also removing mass from it. Probably the density plays a role, cause I`m sure that bone saddles are lighter. Do you recommend that swap or i should install the bone nut only, and leave the saddles. Bridge is non locking MIK Sung II. It has some decent weight, doesn`t feel cheap, but i`m not an expert.
Click to expand...

I wouldn't change the saddles at all, unless you plan to make them harder or heavier or both...

I don't know what the phat finger is; can you enlighten me??

Eddie J. said:
How can i recognize phenol plastic from ABS based? This guitar is Dean, and the nut is black plastic, pretty wide and big, actually it looks pretty much like nuts on PRS SE models. Here it is.
Click to expand...

It looks like ABS to me. the best way to tell is to file it. ABS and other softer plastics tend to "shred" when you file them creating ragged burrs which need to be trimmed away. It feels soft and you can usually mark the surface quite easily but they are hard to file as the plastic melts and clogs the file, so you have to file it wet and then the file cuts too fast because the material is so soft...

Phenolic plastics (variants of Bakelite, basically) are hard and don't melt, but can be burnt, though there are some hard plastics, like acrylics, that aren't phenol based and they do melt. So it's easy to confuse them. There are at least five different plastics used for nuts and saddles; phenolics (including Micarta), acetyl-butyl-styrene (ABS), filled polymethacrylates (Fender's "cyclovac"), boron polytrinitrates (Tusq, I think is this stuff) and epoxy or polyester composites usually with graphite fillers.

Having worked with plastics for many years as a commercial sculptor,designer and mould maker I find I can usually tell what a plastic is just by looking at it, although they are sufficiently diverse in composition that there are entire firms who specialise in polymer analysis as a commercial enterprise.

There is even a "plastic" made from a highly compressed form of gypsum (the mineral binder in plaster of paris) I suspect that Gibbon's nuts are made from this material.

Change the nut anyway. From the photo it's clearly crap.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned is the frets. Do you know if all the frets are sound? I'm increasingly finding loose frets on guitars, particularly those from the mysterious orient. Loose frets would certainly reduce sustain.
 
Re: Fathead ?

octavedoctor said:
I don't know what the phat finger is; can you enlighten me??
Click to expand...
Sure. Fat finger.
Thanks a lot OD, I love your posts, you always give so many good informations :beerchug: (the one about gibbon`s nuts - highly precious :D ;) )

I`m almost sure this is ABS plastic, it behaves exactly like you described it. I`ll change it very soon.
Frets are actually ok for MIK. As i can see they are glued in, and very solid. By knocking on them, they all sound the same. I plan to dress+crown them in close future, some are just a bit higher then the others, but my action is high so it`s not the issue here.

Well, As soon as i put that nut on, I`ll write here what happened with my problem.
 
Re: Fathead ?

er, yes. Good point Zerb, what was I thinking...?

Forgot to mention a filled methacrylate called Corian, currently being used by Martin for their acoustics nuts, although they still favour micarta saddles.
 
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