Firebird/Mini/Johnny Smith ?'s

[assquatch20]

Hey folks, I've got an old SG that was routed years ago with an MJ 59 placed in the bridge, and the stock mini in the neck died, so I've been thinking to complement it with something of stock size.

I've been reading up and listening to various clips of these types of pickup, and was thinking an antiquity Firebird neck p/u might be a good start, but what I'm wanting to do with this guitar is split coils to each pickup with two mini 3-way toggles in control of that. Not sure how a 59 in the bridge would sound with each coil available.

So you split a Firebird p/u and get something like an old Charlie Christian maybe, or a Kay. Low output single coil blade, I reckon. Just guessing here.

With a mini, I would guess it's a little closer to Fender tones or just any PAF split, but tinier. Also unsure.

Then what I'm really curious about is the Johnny Smith. It would seem like if you overwound it a bit, maybe even had different magnets in each coil (is that a bad idea?) you could split it for either coil and get some variable sounds. Obviously it isn't made to fit a body route, but I'm sure the shop could make it so. And then, I can't even be sure what it sounds like with gain, but the concept seems sound.

The guitar, with just the 59 in the bridge, gives a pretty good high-gain feel, but spanky at lower levels. I wanna match those tones with more blues and jazz in the neck pickup, but keep a little high gain ability, especially if/when I could mimic Strat tones.

I know I don't want to fool with the modern ceramic mag type FB pickups, but perhaps it's still a viable option when splitting coils.

I'm just kinda theorizing here, but any input is greatly appreciated. :scratchch

 

[Funkfingers]

Re: Firebird/Mini/Johnny Smith ?'s

an antiquity Firebird neck p/u might be a good start, but what I'm wanting to do with this guitar is split coils to each pickup with two mini 3-way toggles in control of that.

Why? The output with both coils connected in series is not colossal to begin with.

Not sure how a 59 in the bridge would sound with each coil available.

The SH-1B would overpower a coil split FB, SM-1 or similar, regular small humbucker.

So you split a Firebird p/u and get something like an old Charlie Christian maybe, or a Kay.

Only in the sense of the exceedingly low output and RF interference.

With a mini, I would guess it's a little closer to Fender tones or just any PAF split but tinier. Also unsure.

Fender? Yes. Split coil PAF? No. Some forum members liken the LP Deluxe style small humbucker to a P90. I disagree with this opinion but I do understand where they are coming from.

Fender uses the SD SM-1 in the neck position of their Hot Rodded '52 Telecaster model. It is a fantastic choice - not too far removed from the single coil T sound but with some of the girth and power of a full-sized humbucker. Very responsive to playing dynamics.

what I'm really curious about is the Johnny Smith. It would seem like if you overwound it a bit, maybe even had different magnets in each coil (is that a bad idea?) you could split it for either coil and get some variable sounds. Obviously it isn't made to fit a body route, but I'm sure the shop could make it so. And then, I can't even be sure what it sounds like with gain, but the concept seems sound.

As soon as you overwind a floating "Jazz" guitar pickup in this manner, you irrevocably change how it will perform. You would, in effect, be transforming it into the present day, high output Gibson Firebird pickup that you profess to dislike.

The Johnny Smith floating pickup is designed specifically for large, hollow bodied guitars, sporting medium or heavy gauge strings. IMO, it would be wasted on a solid body guitar.

Perhaps, the best person to consult about this topic is LtKojak.

The majority of humbucker pickups employ one bar magnet, mounted beneath the two coil bobbins, between the polepieces. Some designs incorporate additional, smaller magnets in other places in an attempt to bolster the eventual signal.

if/when I could mimic Strat tones.

This would require three pickups. The distance between the pickups is at least as important as their "reading" window. I have a modified old PRS EGII, triple humbuckers, five-way lever selector switch like a Stratocaster, no coil splits. Selector switch positions 2 and 4 sound like a Stratocaster - only slightly thicker.

 

[assquatch20]

Re: Firebird/Mini/Johnny Smith ?'s

I get where you're coming from in your points. My thinking is to overwind a mini a bit to hopefully get close, then have these tones possible:

Split coils at bridge for even more twang (not sure which coil would be ideal so may as well have both)
Full on bridge HB high gain, etc.
Neck mini hum for medium/high gain lead, slide, thicker rhythms
One coil of the mini to chase a more tele/strat neck position sound, lower gain slide, etc.

That's where the idea of something Johnny Smith-esque comes in. I'm attributing the coil with polepieces to a more tubular Strat neck sound, whereas the blade mag of a Firebird coil might chime a bit. Something to yield a little more versatility.

That said, the output differences would be noticeable, especially when using a full hum at the bridge and half a mini at the neck, but that's not the coil selection I'm thinking about. Winding for 7k on the neck should be a good start, no? I think the 59 is around 8.1 if I remember right.

I'm just armchair speculating, but I think the right magnets and a high amount of windings could make something work. I'm just trying to get a good balance with the guitar as it is and the extra couple sounds I'd like to fit in.

 

[LtKojak]

Re: Firebird/Mini/Johnny Smith ?'s

Hey folks, I've got an old SG that was routed years ago with an MJ 59 placed in the bridge, and the stock mini in the neck died, so I've been thinking to complement it with something of stock size.

I've been reading up and listening to various clips of these types of pickup, and was thinking an antiquity Firebird neck p/u might be a good start, but what I'm wanting to do with this guitar is split coils to each pickup with two mini 3-way toggles in control of that. Not sure how a 59 in the bridge would sound with each coil available.

So you split a Firebird p/u and get something like an old Charlie Christian maybe, or a Kay. Low output single coil blade, I reckon. Just guessing here.

With a mini, I would guess it's a little closer to Fender tones or just any PAF split, but tinier. Also unsure.

Then what I'm really curious about is the Johnny Smith. It would seem like if you overwound it a bit, maybe even had different magnets in each coil (is that a bad idea?) you could split it for either coil and get some variable sounds. Obviously it isn't made to fit a body route, but I'm sure the shop could make it so. And then, I can't even be sure what it sounds like with gain, but the concept seems sound.

The guitar, with just the 59 in the bridge, gives a pretty good high-gain feel, but spanky at lower levels. I wanna match those tones with more blues and jazz in the neck pickup, but keep a little high gain ability, especially if/when I could mimic Strat tones.

I know I don't want to fool with the modern ceramic mag type FB pickups, but perhaps it's still a viable option when splitting coils.

I'm just kinda theorizing here, but any input is greatly appreciated. :scratchch

Well... as you personally asked me to look at this thread, I'll try my best.

Having said that, I'd like to actually see the instrument you're talking about, as all the words written here got me scratching my head.:scratchch

Well...?

 

[assquatch20]

Re: Firebird/Mini/Johnny Smith ?'s

Here's the guitar in question. I've just come across some videos of the newest LP Supreme, by chance, and it happens to have a Johnny Smith in the neck position. Doesn't sound too bad from the bits I've heard. I know it's against the purists, but I've considered routing the wings a bit and putting a cap on it and some f-holes. Still yet, I'd like to keep the hum+mini configuration.

 

[LtKojak]

Re: Firebird/Mini/Johnny Smith ?'s

Here's the guitar in question. ]

It looks like a jap guitar from early '80s. Nice ax!

OK, this is the neck p'up I think it'll properly fill the bill:
http://www.seymourduncan.com/products/custom-shop/specialized-1/12_polemini_hum/

As this is a Custom Shop p'up, I'd ask for an A3 mag, so it'll perfectly balance both tone- and output-wise the '59b you've got IF you put an UOA5 mag and a nickel cover.

I've converted all my HB p'ups to 4-conductor (that's nine guitars) and made a harness with coil-split. However, I've never really liked the tone of the single-coil of the HB by itself in any of them. YMMV.

A new harness made with 500K CTS TVT pots for volume 500K Push/Pull Audio pots for Tone, Switchcraft toggle and jack, wired with braided wire are a MUST, so, when you're at it, get some nice PIO .022 caps or Film-in-oil Sprague .022 caps.

Enjoy your guitar for a couple of weeks before trying to do a definitive setup.

HTH,

 

[GuitarDoc]

Re: Firebird/Mini/Johnny Smith ?'s

I've never thought that the '59 pup split sounded good at all. Rather than use the toggle to split the bridge pup, use it to switch the coils to parallel...a much more usable tone.

 

[assquatch20]

Re: Firebird/Mini/Johnny Smith ?'s

It looks like a jap guitar from early '80s. Nice ax!

OK, this is the neck p'up I think it'll properly fill the bill:
http://www.seymourduncan.com/products/custom-shop/specialized-1/12_polemini_hum/

As this is a Custom Shop p'up, I'd ask for an A3 mag, so it'll perfectly balance both tone- and output-wise the '59b you've got IF you put an UOA5 mag and a nickel cover.

I've converted all my HB p'ups to 4-conductor (that's nine guitars) and made a harness with coil-split. However, I've never really liked the tone of the single-coil of the HB by itself in any of them. YMMV.

A new harness made with 500K CTS TVT pots for volume 500K Push/Pull Audio pots for Tone, Switchcraft toggle and jack, wired with braided wire are a MUST, so, when you're at it, get some nice PIO .022 caps or Film-in-oil Sprague .022 caps.

Enjoy your guitar for a couple of weeks before trying to do a definitive setup.

HTH,

Good suggestions, for sure. I just wish I could get a blade mag in there, or something closer to FB sounds. You're saying use an A3 mag in a 12 pole mini though? I could definitely entertain that idea. The guitar is actually an early 70's Gibson. One of their cheaper models at the time.

I'm unsure though, are you saying to swap magnets in the 59 and put a nickel cover on it? I'm totally not against that. I was gonna have the 59 sent off for 4-wire and probably a cover anyway, hopefully while they're building a neck pickup for it. It's an A5 mag currently though, isn't it? UOA5 something different?

I've never thought that the '59 pup split sounded good at all. Rather than use the toggle to split the bridge pup, use it to switch the coils to parallel...a much more usable tone.

I've been thinking about both, actually, but you might be right. Phase switching as well, since switches are just so fun. I need schooled on series/parallel though.

 

[assquatch20]

Re: Firebird/Mini/Johnny Smith ?'s

Seeing as this is an odd idea altogether, it's probably uncharted territory. I'm thinking I'll get ahold of the CS eventually and have a mini made similar to the Johnny Smith, but capable of fitting in a regular body route. From there, I'll start playing with magnets and wiring setups. I'll put some samples up once we get to that point.

 

[AlexR]

Re: Firebird/Mini/Johnny Smith ?'s

Minis/firebirds in the neck tend to sound articulate anyhow......unless you want to go a spin a split I wouldn't bother with any singlecoil like switching.

Check out Zhangbucker - custom wound to your specs pretty much and a sale on atm
http://www.zhangbucker.com/mini-humbuckers.html

 

[LtKojak]

Re: Firebird/Mini/Johnny Smith ?'s

Seeing as this is an odd idea altogether, it's probably uncharted territory. I'm thinking I'll get ahold of the CS eventually and have a mini made similar to the Johnny Smith, but capable of fitting in a regular body route. From there, I'll start playing with magnets and wiring setups. I'll put some samples up once we get to that point.

Minis are delicate and finicky p'ups, which final tonal outcome relays on a good p'up assembling and skilled soldering of the cover. Not the best platform to mag-swap, specially if you're new to it.

Hell, even *I*, with several hundreds of p'up mods under my belt, would be a bit nervous to work on a mini or a FB p'up, mind you.

As by the description given it looks like you're looking for a "Jazzy" setup, that's what my advice go towards. And yes, the UOA5 magnet, (Un-Oriented Alnico 5) is NOT the same magnet that come with the '59b.

HTH,

 

[assquatch20]

Re: Firebird/Mini/Johnny Smith ?'s

OK, this is the neck p'up I think it'll properly fill the bill:
http://www.seymourduncan.com/products/custom-shop/specialized-1/12_polemini_hum/

As this is a Custom Shop p'up, I'd ask for an A3 mag, so it'll perfectly balance both tone- and output-wise the '59b you've got IF you put an UOA5 mag and a nickel cover.

I'm more interested in having a blade magnet in one coil, and maybe both, getting closer to that defined sound of the JS or FB pickups. Do you think either of those with an A3 would be appropriate if I put a UOA5 and nickel cover on the '59b? I was previously thinking A5 or A2. Not very familiar with A3 mags, but it seems sensible.

I figure that instead of having two of the same coil, I could have two with slightly different properties for more options in the neck if I decide to coil split.

I also like the idea of using a spin-a-split as an alternative, but it seems more complicated if I want to have either coil. The original plan is for two concentric pots, one dedicated to each pickup, then 2 on-on-on mini toggles for each pickup.

It gets wilder from there. I've got an American Chestnut log that's just about the right size for a quartersawn 2 piece top, and the guitar leaves plenty of room for a 1/4" top. A semi-hollow SG (what an oxymoron!) with country/jazz capabilities as well as high-gain rock is what I daydream about making this.

Kinda sacrilegious to some folks to do such a thing, but we can't all be squares.

 

[Zhangliqun]

Re: Firebird/Mini/Johnny Smith ?'s

I figure that instead of having two of the same coil, I could have two with slightly different properties for more options in the neck if I decide to coil split.

Even if the two coils are identical and with the same magnets, you already have this because each coil sees a different piece of the string and thus different frequencies. Granted, the difference is less pronounced on a mini because the piece of string each coil sees is closer than on a full-size bucker but it's there.

 

[assquatch20]

Re: Firebird/Mini/Johnny Smith ?'s

Even if the two coils are identical and with the same magnets, you already have this because each coil sees a different piece of the string and thus different frequencies. Granted, the difference is less pronounced on a mini because the piece of string each coil sees is closer than on a full-size bucker but it's there.

Good point. Regarding this, I've been unsure which way to orient the p'up, but my original point should still hold true. That doesn't mean the outcome may not totally suck, but I figure the coil with polepieces should be around the 24th harmonic, if I wanted to call on that coil for imitation Fender sounds. That full, tubular, "I'm inside a wave" sound of a single coil in the neck is part of the appeal. I assume having the coil around this harmonic helps get that sound quite a bit.

 

[Zhangliqun]

Re: Firebird/Mini/Johnny Smith ?'s

If you have one coil stronger than the other, either due to more turns of wire or -- in the case of a Firebird -- a stronger magnet, orient the stronger coil closer to the neck.

 

[assquatch20]

Re: Firebird/Mini/Johnny Smith ?'s

Okay, so it's no longer on the site, so I can't seem to find specs, but what about the Nokie Edwards model in a mini size? I think that in the neck position with the right mags and windings would be very much a blend of what I'm looking for. Anybody know? I'm gonna submit to the CS online and see what happens. I haven't been able to get a phone call through in months and figure they are staying busy, but hope they have the time to check the form I'm doing online.

 

[assquatch20]

Re: Firebird/Mini/Johnny Smith ?'s

Same probs.

 

[Gibson 1964]

Re: Firebird/Mini/Johnny Smith ?'s

So you split a Firebird p/u and get something like an old Charlie Christian maybe, or a Kay. Low output single coil blade, I reckon. Just guessing here.

FWIW, Old Charlie Christian's are not low output. Low DCR, yes, low output, No.

 

[assquatch20]

Re: Firebird/Mini/Johnny Smith ?'s

FWIW, Old Charlie Christian's are not low output. Low DCR, yes, low output, No.

Hey good point. I like that sig guitar ya got there!

I'm finally getting around to this task. I'm thinking to get an A2 F'bird pickup and figure out where to get the right sized magnets and experiment a bit. Maybe I should order something with a lot of windings to start?