Frustrating 57 Classic/Classic Plus Problem

canon_mutant

canon_mutant

New member
I have been playing for 25 years and the 57 Classic - Classic plus combination has always been one of my favorite combinations for mainly classic rock and blues. I have owned 4 guitars to date and still own 2 that have these pups in them that have all been great.

I recently bought a 2017 Gibson Classic guitar that had to go back because the neck was mucked up but while I had it I noticed that the neck pup was warm and wonderful like I was used to but the bridge was thin and a quite noticeable volume drop compared to the neck and compared to my other guitars. Since that guitar was returned that solved the pup problem it had. I instead ordered an Epiphone Tribute Plus that has Gibson 57 Classic/Classic Plus pups and the guitar is wonderful, highly recommended, except . . . it has the exact same problem with those 57 Classic pups.

I took a DC measurement and these Classic Plus pups are less than 8K like they are just Classics. My other 2 guitars are 8.6K and 8.8K. Sweetwater and Gibson claim these new ones are "in spec" so nothing they can do even though with the neck pup adjusted clear down even with its surround and the bridge pup up within 1/8 of the strings, if you put the neck volume on 8 with the bridge on 10 they are equal in volume. I'm sorry, that is NOT right. Granted the Epi may well have cheap pots and caps but it sounds just like the Gibson Classic did.

The one difference between these and my others? These a 4 wire pups. Previously they were always 2 wire.

Important Part: So, I disconnected the green/white wires from the circuitry and tied them together leaving them out of circuit creating a 2 wire connection and . . . no change at all. Now, I know plenty of other pups I can slap in there to make a guitar I am happy with but I "should" be happy with the Classic Plus in there.

Anyone else noticed this?
 
Re: Frustrating 57 Classic/Classic Plus Problem

I do think I have heard another tale of a classic + that metered in the same range as a classic.........or in other words the guitar was fitted with 2 of the same pickup rather than a hotter one in the bridge.

Its best to go with something you will be fully happy with....whatever that might be.
 
Re: Frustrating 57 Classic/Classic Plus Problem

Yup, understood, and I've already got a WholeLottaHumbucker on the way but I "should" be happy with what is in it. Haven't tried that particular SD pup anyway so this is an opportunity and should work quite well with the 57 Classic neck pup.

Along with a number of other things Gibson has done to reduce costs that I don't like, I suspect that this is just another aspect.

Though the Trubute Plus is a higher priced Epi, compared to Gibson prices it is VERY reasonable and is otherwise a VERY nice guitar. Highly recommended . . .
 
Re: Frustrating 57 Classic/Classic Plus Problem

canon_mutant said:
The Tribute Plus is a higher priced Epi
Click to expand...
The higher price come from the '57 Classics already installed.

It would've been a better deal to get a Standard Epi, get a second-hand '57 Classic/ '57 Classic Plius set and changed'em yourself.

/Peter
 
Re: Frustrating 57 Classic/Classic Plus Problem

I made a post on another forum a while back about Gibson pickups not seeming to be the same as they used to be. After I got shouted down I gave up. But the 498T and 490 I have which were made in the last 5 years or so really don't seem at all like the set I got in my 1998 Explorer. Even retrofitting the newer pickups into the Explorer made for a thin bridge and overly basic neck tone.

But the forum decided I was stupid, so gave up. Either way, I think you're dead right but to me the resolution is to go for an aftermarket set, which I have done with all four of my Gibsons. FWIW not sure what my 2016 SG Standard came with, but they were an ugly mess that didn't stay in the guitar for more than two days. Currently rocking a set of Duncans in there (Custom in bridge and 59 Bridge in the neck) and couldn't be happier.

FWIW, it's not just Gibson pickups. I have my strong spidey senses suspicion aimed at string manufacturers too! A quick cliffe notes version, I've been using standard Ernie Ball strings since the 90s. Only in the last few years, I've found they just started to feel different-y, they didn't stay sharp for as long and more importantly, prolonged use brought me out in a bit of a rash. Not quite nickel allergy, but close. I switched to using the Ernie Ball Paradigms. These feel far more like what I remember the standard EB strings were like. D'Addario I felt the same thing between their standard entry price level strings and the NYXL. Of course I can't prove it; who has a ten year old set of strings in their house that isn't black and mouldy? But that's my suspicion. Make the entry £7 per set strings different and not very good so now everyone wants the £16 fancy set.

I don't mind if that's the case. Inflation is a thing, if costs increase then they increase. Just don't BS me.

But again, I was told I was wrong so I'll live with it.
 
Re: Frustrating 57 Classic/Classic Plus Problem

Ernie Ball strings I believe have for many years been made by another company. Currently I think they are made by D'Addario (as are the current Gibson strings, ever since they closed their string making division), which would explain your findings.
Al

jonsick said:
I made a post on another forum a while back about Gibson pickups not seeming to be the same as they used to be. After I got shouted down I gave up. But the 498T and 490 I have which were made in the last 5 years or so really don't seem at all like the set I got in my 1998 Explorer. Even retrofitting the newer pickups into the Explorer made for a thin bridge and overly basic neck tone.

But the forum decided I was stupid, so gave up. Either way, I think you're dead right but to me the resolution is to go for an aftermarket set, which I have done with all four of my Gibsons. FWIW not sure what my 2016 SG Standard came with, but they were an ugly mess that didn't stay in the guitar for more than two days. Currently rocking a set of Duncans in there (Custom in bridge and 59 Bridge in the neck) and couldn't be happier.

FWIW, it's not just Gibson pickups. I have my strong spidey senses suspicion aimed at string manufacturers too! A quick cliffe notes version, I've been using standard Ernie Ball strings since the 90s. Only in the last few years, I've found they just started to feel different-y, they didn't stay sharp for as long and more importantly, prolonged use brought me out in a bit of a rash. Not quite nickel allergy, but close. I switched to using the Ernie Ball Paradigms. These feel far more like what I remember the standard EB strings were like. D'Addario I felt the same thing between their standard entry price level strings and the NYXL. Of course I can't prove it; who has a ten year old set of strings in their house that isn't black and mouldy? But that's my suspicion. Make the entry £7 per set strings different and not very good so now everyone wants the £16 fancy set.

I don't mind if that's the case. Inflation is a thing, if costs increase then they increase. Just don't BS me.

But again, I was told I was wrong so I'll live with it.
Click to expand...
 
Re: Frustrating 57 Classic/Classic Plus Problem

jonsick said:
I made a post on another forum a while back about Gibson pickups not seeming to be the same as they used to be. After I got shouted down I gave up. But the 498T and 490 I have which were made in the last 5 years or so really don't seem at all like the set I got in my 1998 Explorer. Even retrofitting the newer pickups into the Explorer made for a thin bridge and overly basic neck tone.

But the forum decided I was stupid, so gave up. Either way, I think you're dead right but to me the resolution is to go for an aftermarket set, which I have done with all four of my Gibsons. FWIW not sure what my 2016 SG Standard came with, but they were an ugly mess that didn't stay in the guitar for more than two days. Currently rocking a set of Duncans in there (Custom in bridge and 59 Bridge in the neck) and couldn't be happier.
Click to expand...


Our member Kojak said that Gibson has changed the specs on '57 a few times; if true it was likely done to some of their other PU's too. Think about it, aftermarket PU makers have a passion for PU's that a guitar maker just isn't going to have. What percentage of Gibsons sold are because of the PU's, or because of the overall guitar and name on the headstock? What percentage of players won't buy a Gibson model specifically because it of the type of humbuckers it has ('57, BB, BBP, 498T/490R, 500T/496R, 490T/490R, Dirty Fingers, etc). Almost every Gibson owner I've asked doesn't even know what kind of PU's are in it, nor does he care.

From my perspective, having had more recent versions of '57's, and don't care for them at all. I think Duncan's Seth and A2P sound far better. Seth's were designed by Seth Lover and Seymour Duncan, as authentic as you can get. What they created is one of the world's great PAF's.
 
Re: Frustrating 57 Classic/Classic Plus Problem

jonsick said:
I made a post on another forum a while back about Gibson pickups not seeming to be the same as they used to be. After I got shouted down I gave up. But the 498T and 490 I have which were made in the last 5 years or so really don't seem at all like the set I got in my 1998 Explorer. Even retrofitting the newer pickups into the Explorer made for a thin bridge and overly basic neck tone.

But the forum decided I was stupid, so gave up. Either way, I think you're dead right but to me the resolution is to go for an aftermarket set, which I have done with all four of my Gibsons. FWIW not sure what my 2016 SG Standard came with, but they were an ugly mess that didn't stay in the guitar for more than two days. Currently rocking a set of Duncans in there (Custom in bridge and 59 Bridge in the neck) and couldn't be happier.

FWIW, it's not just Gibson pickups. I have my strong spidey senses suspicion aimed at string manufacturers too! A quick cliffe notes version, I've been using standard Ernie Ball strings since the 90s. Only in the last few years, I've found they just started to feel different-y, they didn't stay sharp for as long and more importantly, prolonged use brought me out in a bit of a rash. Not quite nickel allergy, but close. I switched to using the Ernie Ball Paradigms. These feel far more like what I remember the standard EB strings were like. D'Addario I felt the same thing between their standard entry price level strings and the NYXL. Of course I can't prove it; who has a ten year old set of strings in their house that isn't black and mouldy? But that's my suspicion. Make the entry £7 per set strings different and not very good so now everyone wants the £16 fancy set.

I don't mind if that's the case. Inflation is a thing, if costs increase then they increase. Just don't BS me.

But again, I was told I was wrong so I'll live with it.
Click to expand...

This is why I posted here. Hell, I posted on the Les Paul forum about the crappy neck I got on that new 2017 Gibson Classic Plus and got read the riot act. Well, excuse me for livin' . . .

But, old spec I found on Classic / Classic Plus were 7.5-8.3K / 8.5-9.1K. I see the Classic Plus is now just 8.3 and the two I had didn't even get there [7.8 and 8.0] so they are just making weaker pups like they are cheaper guitars.

Got a WholeLottaHumbucker on the way. Since I already know I like that Alnico II, I was going to go Pearly Gates, Pro, or Slash but thought I might as well get something new and go with a II/V combo. I already know for what I play that 57 Classic in the neck will work and a slightly hotter Alnico V in the bridge should make a nice combo.

But, if the Classic Plus was what it used to be and what I am used to, we wouldn't be having this conversation . . .
 
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Re: Frustrating 57 Classic/Classic Plus Problem

As I said....if they are reading 7.8 and 8.0 then you didn't get the classic plus.....lower turn count notwithstanding.

And don't assume cheaper guitars are the reason why pickups get low turn counts. T-tops and shaws slay 57's - including the earliest version of the 57's which are lightyears better and more vibrant than the current ones. And they meter out at low to mid 7's.
 
Re: Frustrating 57 Classic/Classic Plus Problem

Hey, they are both stamped +, Sweetwater and Gibson both said they are indeed +, even though the other 2 older ones I have in guitars plus a spare gold top in the drawer all measure high 8 to 9K . . . and more importantly they sound like they are freakin supposed to.

What slays what is purely subjective. For what I play, [apparently the old school??] 57 Classic/Classic+ are the bees knees. Even put a set in one of my Carvins I love them so much and never looked back. BTW, not to change the subject but, put a set of Saturday Night Specials in my CS6 almost purely on a whim and those Alnico IVs are special.

Was lucky enough to score a 50th R9 since I turned 50 in 2009 too and would take a "correct" set of 57s any day over the BBs that are in it . . . though not enough to change them out on a 1 of only 25 collector model but just sayin' . . . Oh, it may be a collector but it still gets played though :headbang:

Main reason I decided at my age to get the Epi was I was down to just the one Les Paul and will only play the R9 here VERY carefully!
 
Re: Frustrating 57 Classic/Classic Plus Problem

Discharged said:
The higher price come from the '57 Classics already installed.

It would've been a better deal to get a Standard Epi, get a second-hand '57 Classic/ '57 Classic Plius set and changed'em yourself.

/Peter
Click to expand...

Not necessarily. This Tribute Plus is superior in about every way. Better bound, better nut, locking tuners, and though I have not done an A-B comparison between plek'd vs not, I can say the fretwork on this Epi is perfect and I have NEVER seen that . . . it is a better guitar in every way to the "2017" Gibson Classic or Traditional I looked at. Now that is with how Gibson is making them in 2017. The Gibson Traditional even 8 or 9 years ago the last time I looked was still a very special guitar.
 
Re: Frustrating 57 Classic/Classic Plus Problem

canon_mutant said:
Hey, they are both stamped +, Sweetwater and Gibson both said they are indeed +, even though the other 2 older ones I have in guitars plus a spare gold top in the drawer all measure high 8 to 9K . . . and more importantly they sound like they are freakin supposed to.
Click to expand...

Stickers and what are written on websites have little to do with it......Sweetwater simply cuts and pastes Gibson's website info so they are not really any sort of authority lets face it....and Gibson's specs often don't show what is actually in the guitar.
And do you really thing that a sticker can't be erroneously put on a pickup?? Or a pickup run short and something else put in to get the guitars out the door??

DCR is much more relevant to telling what a pickup is than a sticker - which is after all only a piece of paper.

And even then.....the exact same pickup in a different guitar can be SO different. So you cannot just say 'this is x pickup....it should sound the same irrespective of the guitar it is in'.
 
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Re: Frustrating 57 Classic/Classic Plus Problem

canon_mutant said:
Not necessarily. This Tribute Plus is superior in about every way. Better bound, better nut, locking tuners, and though I have not done an A-B comparison between plek'd vs not, I can say the fretwork on this Epi is perfect and I have NEVER seen that . . . it is a better guitar in every way to the "2017" Gibson Classic or Traditional I looked at. Now that is with how Gibson is making them in 2017. The Gibson Traditional even 8 or 9 years ago the last time I looked was still a very special guitar.
Click to expand...
If you look at the various factory tours on You Tube, you'll see for yourself that the perceived quality of your instrument is most probably the luck of the draw, although yours belong in a particular batch, ordered with particular specs.

There are no Plek machines in any of the chinese factories building instruments for Epiphone, which are the following:

MR = QingDao
DW = DaeWon
EA = Gibson/QingDao
EE = Gibson/QingDao
MC = Muse
SJ = SaeJung
Z = Zaozhuang Saehan
BW = QingDao

Also, there's another factory (not clear, but it might even be two) in Indonesia, that build instruments for Epiphone.

I = Indonesia
SI = Samick Indonesia

And this info is AFTER Gibson opened their Qingdao factory in 2002, it wasn't until 2011 that they were ready to sustain large-scale full production. Therefore, most were made in Korea by the following factories:

I = Saein
U = Unsung
S = Samick
P or R = Peerless
K = Korea
F = Fine

The "I" instruments are all made in Korea until 2010, when they changed operation to Indonesia.

/Peter
 
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Re: Frustrating 57 Classic/Classic Plus Problem

To follow suit:
My SG '61 R-Issue came with two Classic 57's. Both neck p'up's, each around 8k. I prefer Duncan's anyway, but thought I'd
let jonsick know he is not alone.
Steve Buffington
 
Re: Frustrating 57 Classic/Classic Plus Problem

I think that there is either another variable not accounted for or there is a whole lot of exaggeration going on here in describing the output difference in your pups.

If you have 2 identical pups and only the resistance is different (8k vs 8.6k), you only have 7-8% difference in resistance which results in even less actual measured output difference. And the "perceived" output difference would be even less than the measured difference. But what you are describing (needing to lower the neck pup flush with the mounting ring and turning the vol down to "8") is describing a 30-40% lower perceived volume.

Even if you take a 9k bridge pup that sounds exactly as loud as a neck pup and split it, it is now only 4.5k...a 50% reduction in resistance. Yes, it sounds quieter, but not as dramatic as you are describing. There has to be something else going on than just a 7% lower resistance.

I'm not saying that you are not hearing a difference, I'm just saying that something just doesn't make sense with your evaluation. Sorry.
 
Re: Frustrating 57 Classic/Classic Plus Problem

Sigh . . .

Beyond its weak thin tone, the low DC resistance is merely the only spec I have available. I do understand there are other factors involved that affect the sound quality of a pup. The fact, however, that the Classic + pups I have that sound right are up toward 9K and both of these are 7.8 and 8K combined with Gibson and Sweetwater have said they are both "in spec" tells me that Gibson has changed the pup or they are merely Classics labeled as a + or they are f'd up. Got the WholeLottaHumbucker in tonight and it sounds very good.

On the whole Plek thing? Sweetwater supposedly offers this as a service on their own machine. Again, I have no A-B comparison to even know what all Sweetwater actually does even though I understand the theory. All I know is I have never picked up an Epi and of late very few low end Gibsons that did not require at least some fret work. This guitar is perfect. Add in the nicer binding, bone nut, and locking tuners and I am quite pleased with the quality and value for the money of [this] Tribute Plus guitar except for the weak ass bridge pup . . . that is now fixed quite nicely by Seymour Duncan!
 
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Re: Frustrating 57 Classic/Classic Plus Problem

Maybe try to look at it this way- that 57 Classic might make a good neck pickup for another project sometime.
And I think the WLH is likely to sound better than a ClassicPlus would have anyway.
 
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Re: Frustrating 57 Classic/Classic Plus Problem

I have own Chinese Epiphone LP Standard and Indonesian LP Standard (plus top). On paper, Standard Plus Top and Standard differ on looks, neck profile and electronics (pro-buckers with coil tap vs Alnico II classics). Experience after owning both of them is that they are worlds appart in quality. I have changed eveeything possible on the chinese, and even with upgraded parts, the guitar itself is so low in category compared with the Indonesian, that it will never be even close to the stock plus top.
So, in my experience, it is impossible to get a Tribute Plus out of a standard just by upgrading pickups. The basis, wood, fretwork, (even the placement of the strap-button was wrong in the chinese one, I couldn't put a bigsby on it because the wholes were not in line)... everything in the chinese is miles apart from the Indonesian.
My personal experience. I want to get rid of thar guitar, but I even feel that if I sell it I would be «scamming» someone. If you ask me, stay away from chinese Epis, and go for Indonesian Epis, those are real serious quality instruments.
And I hope it was just that I had bad luck with that particular guitar.

Enviado desde mi HUAWEI SCL-L01 mediante Tapatalk
 
Re: Frustrating 57 Classic/Classic Plus Problem

Discharged said:
I think you got a mislabeled BB#1/BB#2 set.

Weirder things had happened and still happen to this day @ Gibson. ;)

/Peter
Click to expand...

I think Discharged may be right.

BB1 is a great neck pickup in the right guitar but the BB2 didn't suit me at all. Thin & scratchy in my LP Trad Plus Top.
Replaced it with a sweet 'n spicy 59/09 bridge and the guitar is great now.
 
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