Getting Classic Rock sound out of Metal Amp

N

NewWave

New member
Right, anyone that doesn't like the sound of the title can start to flame me now.

How to get classic rock tone out of this (with its matching cab) :
GroteFoto-SFNOBW6D.jpg
and btw, that's not my pic I just googled it. But I have that amp.

It has 4x JJ el34, JJ 12ax7 in V1,V2, Ruby Higrade 12ax7 in V3, and ruby 12ax7 in v4, it is running through the stock HH speakers. I've tried tweaking it for some time to no avail. From tweaking it, I realized that the HH speakers are pure rubbish even when playing clean. Whenever I crank it to above 5 volume the speakers start to sound very dark and ice-picky at the same time (what can be worse than that?).

And for anyone that is curious, no I don't use much gain to try getting out the classic rock sound.. I only set the knob at 3 (not 3 o'clock!) and It just sounds fuzzy, no warmth at all. And my guitar (les paul) uses low output pickups and I play in middle position.

I don't have recording gear so I can't make a video of what I mean and mobile phone video will do no good.

Oh yeah, I tried using pedal and it still sounds fuzzy, My SS fender frontman even sound better with those pedals more warmth, clearer note-note when playing chords, etc.

I'm trying to get Aerosmith/Lynyrd Skynyrd sound. Please no comment about trading or selling it to buy another amp. Second hand Laney is nearly worthless here. Yes, I know I'm stupid to buy an amp like that for classic rock sound but I have this strange attraction with the amp's name.
 
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Re: Getting Classic Rock sound out of Metal Amp

Why not just make it easy and get a pedal...

Sometimes those high gain amps sound weak and thin for mid gain tones...a nice vintage voiced pedal like the ZVex Distortron or Box of Rock might be just what you need.
 
Re: Getting Classic Rock sound out of Metal Amp

Been there, done that.. using overdrive pedal and still F-U-Z-Z-Y. when strumming a chord, the notes are so very not clear.
 
Re: Getting Classic Rock sound out of Metal Amp

the guy who invented fire said:
Why not just make it easy and get a pedal...

Sometimes those high gain amps sound weak and thin for mid gain tones...a nice vintage voiced pedal like the ZVex Distortron or Box of Rock might be just what you need.
Click to expand...

^^^

I agree.

Plus you need different gain approaches for both Aerosmith and Lynyrd Skynyrd, a pedal will get you there fastest. I wouldn't expect too much satisfaction from the Laney as is, even in low wattage setting.
Even technique can only get you so far. It is kinda like trying to get a classic Tele tone from a stock Les Paul.

Without getting into a debate about which pedal is best, I personally have been enjoying the Ecstasy / Euphoria pedals by Brian Wampler. He has other 'amp in a box' type pedals that are very classic. He does that well.
I would be interested in the Duncan Twin Classic. Really look forward to running that pedal.

Enjoy the process!

Much Respect,

Rodney Gene, Austin Texas
 
Re: Getting Classic Rock sound out of Metal Amp

NewWave said:
Been there, done that.. using overdrive pedal and still F-U-Z-Z-Y. when strumming a chord, the notes are so very not clear.
Click to expand...

If your amp has a pre-amp in, you can use that with a different pre and only use the power section of the Laney.
Again, hard to get a dog to meow and frustrating trying.

BTW, here in the US (dont know where you are) Old Peavey Amps are abundant and they still rock... solid. That will get you the Lynyrd Skynerd sound on the super cheap.
 
Re: Getting Classic Rock sound out of Metal Amp

NewWave said:
Been there, done that.. using overdrive pedal and still F-U-Z-Z-Y. when strumming a chord, the notes are so very not clear.
Click to expand...

Not all pedals are FUZZY...some have quite a bit of clarity.

If you don't want a new amp and won't try a pedal then I'd say you are going to have to just deal with what you have....
 
Getting Classic Rock sound out of Metal Amp

Lots of mids. I pull 70s rock tones out of my 5153 all the time. Your tone knob is your friend. Get rid of the JJ tubes. They are very fizzy. Especially the power tubes.
 
Re: Getting Classic Rock sound out of Metal Amp

Mix a couple 12AT7 or you might even try a 12AU7 in the pre. Can do a lot to make an amp purr...
 
Re: Getting Classic Rock sound out of Metal Amp

Also, go for low output pickups, or lower the height of your existing pickups. Are your speakers broken in?
 
Re: Getting Classic Rock sound out of Metal Amp

I was EXACTLY where you are 4 or so years ago.

Unfortunately, the only real answer is a total gear swap. Out went my ESPs, JEMs, ENGL, Splawn, etc ... in came Agile Les Pauls, SG, and Strats w low output pickups ... single channel heads designed to give a crunch break up and then adding fuzz or boost on top. To combat the volume issue using a single channel NMV amp, I went for very low wattage amps with very efficient speakers.

I tried for a long time to get the Splawn, ENGL, and JCM800 to give me a vintage crunch tone ... I got part of the way there, but it ALWAYS sounded like a compromise and not really true to the original.

The other side of the coin was my actual PLAYING STYLE also had to alter. It starts in your heart and brain, then your fingers, and gets to the gear last.
 
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Re: Getting Classic Rock sound out of Metal Amp

I'm not trying to sound like an ass here I know that some of you might be tired from work or it's the middle of the night in your country, but to anyone who wants to help me/comment can you please read the whole post first?

@the guy who invented fire =
NewWave said:
Oh yeah, I've tried using pedal and it still sounds fuzzy, My SS fender frontman even sound better with those pedals more warmth, clearer note-note when playing chords, etc.
Click to expand...

@SFW = I've messed with the knobs for like every option available

@Kevlar = yea maybe changing some pre amp tubes, what brand do you recommend? (smooth highs and lows,normal mids) is there any vid of a higain amp with low gain tubes? I use paf style potted pickups btw. and what are the effects of broken in speakers? My current speakers are very dark and trebly will breaking the speakers (not literally) smooth the highs and bass

@Oddysey = I'm glad that you got what you want.. I'll try to find someone who wants to trade their gear with mine, because I would love a V and I have an RG prestige that I don't really use. I think I used good enough playing style (lots of attitude, creativity, love for the guitar) to sound rock and roll. I think it's those stock speakers that are ****. I mean I get 412 cofig just for about 250 us bucks
 
Re: Getting Classic Rock sound out of Metal Amp

I love threads like this...

You want help but most of the advise you are given you turn down.

If you don't like your amp then a new amp is the most obvious thing to do but that is out of the question...so how about using a pedal in front of that amp...that won't work either...

Here is a question for you.

What will work for you? What can you do? What is an option?

Help us help you...

Let me ask this...what pedal(s) have you tried?? Surely you haven't tried them all.

Have you experimented with tube changes?

What kind of speakers have you tried with your amp?

Most importantly what are you looking for that are you are not getting from it as-is?
 
Re: Getting Classic Rock sound out of Metal Amp

I come from the classic rock era, and I can tell you this .... you need to find the best clean tone you can from the amp first. And by clean, I mean 'clean like an old Fender, Vox or pre-m/v Marshall'. In other words, not filthy, but fat and warm, with some kind of 'character'. Then you boost it a little for the crunch (overdive pedals work better than distortion pedals).

So many high-gain amps now are engineered predominantly in that direction (hi-gain) that it tends to compromise the clean side, so it's not easy to get a convincing '70s amp tone, and it will be a compromise. All i can suggest is to approach it not from the 'trying to cool down the gain sounds' aspect, but from 'starting from scratch, looking for the best, most character-ful clean tone' (i.e. big, open, dynamic and warm) and then building on that.
 
Re: Getting Classic Rock sound out of Metal Amp

@Fire = From my posts you can't say that I turn down most advice, but I consider the advice that I haven't done/thought before. I'm sorry if you translated my post as a reject to your comment, as I have little array of english words because I don't speak english as a first language. From what I understood about the pedals that I used and run through my 2 amps, It's not actually fuzzy/fizzy but the HH speakers make them fizzy in high volumes while tube amps need to be cranked to have balls.

The dirt pedals that I used are MXR Dist III and Digitech Bad Monkey, yes it's not hi-end pedal but it does sound decent actually.
The tubes that came with the amp are 4x ruby power tubes and pre amp tubes and yes I've changed them to JJ to see if the amp sounds better (by better means less fizzy and more warmth).. why I buy JJ is because I heard that JJ are the same as groove tubes and I like the tone of some guitarists that uses groove tubes. And it does nothing

Unfortunately, the speakers that I tried with the amp are only the stock speakers..

And I don't really get your last question..

And I'm sorry if I ask questions like this because I can't really get experienced answers/ideas/opinions from people that I know/around me

maybe tomorrow I'll record something with my mobile phone what I mean (running pedal through my SS and the 'problem' amp) if that do any help. I think I will also make a youtube account as I don't have one
 
Re: Getting Classic Rock sound out of Metal Amp

crusty philtrum said:
I come from the classic rock era, and I can tell you this .... you need to find the best clean tone you can from the amp first. And by clean, I mean 'clean like an old Fender, Vox or pre-m/v Marshall'. In other words, not filthy, but fat and warm, with some kind of 'character'. Then you boost it a little for the crunch (overdive pedals work better than distortion pedals).

So many high-gain amps now are engineered predominantly in that direction (hi-gain) that it tends to compromise the clean side, so it's not easy to get a convincing '70s amp tone, and it will be a compromise. All i can suggest is to approach it not from the 'trying to cool down the gain sounds' aspect, but from 'starting from scratch, looking for the best, most character-ful clean tone' (i.e. big, open, dynamic and warm) and then building on that.
Click to expand...

man i can tell you that I've done that.. the clean is actually pretty good than cheap mesa/blackstar
But then you will understand what I mean by dark and not warm when he start playing with some dist.
yes I also use overdrive pedal trying to get that rock sound (digitech bad monkey) but these speakers feels like need a throwing out of the window of a 10th floor. But I don't buy a replacement (celestion lynchback, V30, Creamback, G12h30 what do you think should i get? Yes my local store is a celestion retailer) yet because I am afraid it will just a waste of my hard earned money.. Can you guys hear a clip or two of these amp with the matching cab and tell me what do you think about the cab speakers..
I found this youtube vid with the same amp with different cabs and at 2:19 he can get some good warm chuck berry tone (of course, he uses hi output pickups which covers the warmth and get rather harsh sound)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gzK2bT_Vh88&list=UUwOTWa-5GmVOO0ffmfCGVTg&index=1 (sorry forum doesn't allow posting 2 vids)
 
Re: Getting Classic Rock sound out of Metal Amp

The clean tone sounds like a good enough platform to use a pedal with. Some of the sounds towards the end get in the ballpark if the gain was turned down a bit.

What do you mean by 'cheap mesa' ?
 
Re: Getting Classic Rock sound out of Metal Amp

richard parker said:
The clean tone sounds like a good enough platform to use a pedal with. Some of the sounds towards the end get in the ballpark if the gain was turned down a bit.

What do you mean by 'cheap mesa' ?
Click to expand...

I mean mesa boogie express. I put the gain on 3 (10 o'clock) still can't get that sound. The speakers are very dark sounding. The clean is actually good through the speakers but only in low volume.. As I crank the volume it starts to sound very dark. I've actually made a video (using my phone) and as I expect, it do no good (what surprises me, the laney sounds better in the vid) but not in reality, I can make some good rock tone with my pedal thru the SS amp but thru the laney again sounded dark
 
Re: Getting Classic Rock sound out of Metal Amp

Try taking the Laney head someplace where you can try different speakers. A friend, a store, whatever.

I had a Laney combo once and yes the H&H speakers are crap. That said, you may end up throwing lots of money at the problem and not get to the root of the problem. Maybe the amp just won't do what your trying to do.

In metal amps, the 'feel' or attack of the note envelope is much more strident. You won't get that loose, blooming, chewy texture out of a Metal amp like you will from a more vintage build.
 
Re: Getting Classic Rock sound out of Metal Amp

In my opinion, you need a clean channel and some (or several) tone-shaping pedal type amp-in-a-box to "overwrite" your amp' sound.
But, this will give you as close as your amp allows it. I mean, amps used for old-school rock, blues, etc. are usually simple circuits with LOTS of dynamics and very sensible to your picking technique, while metal designed amps are way compressed, by design, and with complex front end and tube cascading gain stages.
If your clean channel has an usefull clean sound then, try the amp-in-a-box pedals from Wampler (or even, the cheaper line of AMT pedals).

Tweed tone = Tweed '57
Blackface tone = Black '59
Plexi (JTM45 - SuperLead) = Plexi Drive
Van Hallen / Brown sound = Pinnacle Deluxe
JCM800 alike = Plextortion

They work in any clean channel of any tube amp I've tested.
 
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