Gibson and Japanese Les Pauls

[stupendous silly]

Just gave away my Traditional, and want a little more 'lite' and modern Les Paul. I hope at some point to acquire a CS Gibson, but I will keep it modest for now, not least because I can't get anything above around 1800 dollars through customs here, I would need to go and pick one myself from abroad. Traditional was good, not great but good enough, very heavy, neck was a wider-than-regular 50s profile. I believe as long as I stay below Custom Shop levels it won't matter much if it is a Standard or a Studio, most likely I will get a Classic plus because of the good looks and ease on the wallet. But then how are the Japanese alternatives, since I am not super-ambitious this time anyway? Lots of Edwards Customs on ebay from Japan. Then there is Fujigen, Tokai, Bacchus and the rest. It is good to know that I need not be embarrassed of my unending guitar related problems when I am here

 

[Nagisa]

Re: Gibson and Japanese Les Pauls

There are a lot of good LP makers. I personally prefer the weight relief in my LP studio to the heavy ones by Tokai. Not sure if Fujigen does weight relief but if it does, I would look into them. I live in JP though, not sure how the pricing will work for you. My 2016 studio came perfect, awesome fretwork, btw.

 

[eclecticsynergy]

Re: Gibson and Japanese Les Pauls

For the high end series Japanese build quality is every bit as good as Gibson's, in some cases it's better. So if you aren't buying for investment value, I wouldn't be overly concerned with the name on the headstock. Tokai, Orville, Greco, Fernandez, Burny, and Edwards are all good quality as long as you're careful to avoid the bargain models.

Les Paul types can be pretty variable- not just in weight but also in terms of feel and tone. My shopping advice is always to try a bunch of them in person and find one that speaks to you and fits your price range. Choose a guitar, not a brand name.

However, if you must shop sight unseen without being able to play the guitars in person, in any good Japanese brand you won't need to worry much about the build quality. They're not just good; they're also very consistent. More consistent than Gibson has been in recent years, IMO.

Some sellers will include the weight as part of their listing, and most others will provide it on request. If weight is a serious concern for you, don't buy without knowing it in advance- some LPs can weigh up to 12 lbs... My heaviest is 9.9lbs. For me that's too heavy to be comfortable for more than a few songs at a time.

I'll repeat, though: my confidence in the consistently high quality of MIJ Les Pauls does not extend to the low-priced series that most of the Japanese brands (except Orville) offered alongside their high end guitars. Be aware of the model numbers- they make a difference. Many of the high end MIJ guitars have long tenon neck joints like Gibson only offers on Historics & Custom Shop models. Even the mid-grade Japanese ones (often finished in poly rather than nitro) can still be excellent guitars and often are pretty affordable. The reasonable pricing applies to older ones as well- you won't find a 35-year-old Gibson LP for less than premium prices, but you can still find decent deals on 1980s MIJ ones if you shop around.

 

[justFred]

Re: Gibson and Japanese Les Pauls

there is one Les Paul maker, Gibson. There are good copies but they are not Les Pauls and if they don't have a carved maple cap and nitro finish they are not even copies just shapes kinda like...

 

[Nagisa]

Re: Gibson and Japanese Les Pauls

To reinforce what electricsynergy said, Edwards has good models but in general they are seen as another Epiphone here in Japan. Same with the E-2 "ltd/esp" brand. Definitely be sure you're buying a better model.

 

[eclecticsynergy]

Re: Gibson and Japanese Les Pauls

Orvilles & OrvilleByGibsons are official Les Paul models, built to Gibson specs. Some of the Orvilles have poly finishes, some even have veneer tops over their carved maple caps. And they might not have fret nibs. But these guitars have long tenon necks made from carefully chosen wood and the workmanship is easily the equal of Gibson's domestic builds from the same period. They're made with attention to detail and a personal sense of pride-in-craftsmanship that the underpaid workers in the American plants didn't feel. More importantly, if they didn't meet high standards they didn't make it out of the factory. Being made in Japan they cost less then and aren't as valuable now. But that doesn't mean they aren't any good. Especially for those on a budget.

If I had the choice between a twenty-year-old, Fujigen-made, long-tenon Orville By Gibson or a new LP Studio for the same price, I'd choose the OBG in a heartbeat.

Now, if we were talking investment value, that'd be a different issue altogether. But for a player's guitar, I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the MIJ models. Not just the actual Orville Les Paul models, but also the "Love Rock" or "Las Vegas" or various other high quality builds modeled after the LP. Tokai, Burny, Greco, History, Edwards, FGN, all well-made guitars. So are the open-book type MIJ Epiphone LPs which are still a pretty good bang for the buck.

EDIT: PS: Just viewed a couple of early-80s Tokai LS120s over on eBay: they're now selling for about three times what they were the last time I checked. People have become more aware of them in recent years, no longer really a bargain I guess. Still, these were much closer to the classic late-50s LPs than anything Gibson was making until they came out with Historics and VOSs.

 

[BloodRose]

Re: Gibson and Japanese Les Pauls

Yes, the import ones have gone WAY up in recent years. Just a couple years ago you could get an Edwards V for about $699. they run about a grand now.
If you can play before buying, its hard to beat a good Gibby LP. However, best to play first. My Trad Pro feels alive to play. However, several I played were duds. Site unseen, many of the Japanese copies are usually excellent. I have an 80s Burny that weighs a ton, but its a sustain machine. Also had an Edwards once that was great and Id love to have another.

 

[stupendous silly]

Re: Gibson and Japanese Les Pauls

Yes I think Gibson has its own vibe that is different, apparently more low end than the Edwards ones I am listening on utube. People love those nice Bacchus models, and I bet they are great, but they sound like a thing of their own, if utube listening counts for anything.

 

[stupendous silly]

Re: Gibson and Japanese Les Pauls

Thanks a lot for the writeups they are great. I am chasing a LP Classic plus on ebay presently. Anybody knows these TOKAI-SHOP guys? Ther are lots of Japanese sellers online.
I think recent Gibson quality controls improved, that is my experience with my Traditional, and others confirm that, so I am feeling comfortable getting one sight unseen. I would feel even more comfortable buying a Japanese one unseen, I know how Japanese production is reliable and consistent like that. Maybe you can recommend me exact models which you think would be worthy, I am not sure which ones you are referring to when you recommend hi-end or medium-priced Japanese guitars. I have a 1800 dollars limit as I mentioned. And I think I won't buy a used one online, although I would love to try those 80s Tokais, Grecos etc...

 

[stupendous silly]

Re: Gibson and Japanese Les Pauls

By the way when I said 'lite' Les Paul I didn't mean I necessarily need a weight-relieved one, 'Lite' is 'modern' in a general way, I don't want a big neck, and overall I think I am a 'Standard' guy.

 

[stupendous silly]

Re: Gibson and Japanese Les Pauls

The most important question I have now is the Tokai-Shop, and Japanese ebay sellers in general.

 

[Gone_Shootin]

Re: Gibson and Japanese Les Pauls

I just picked up an '08 Standard Silverburst, and it's light. It's hollowed out like a Class 5 Les Paul, and has a '60s neck, so it's a little thinner and plays nice. I don't know if those necks are your thing or not, but that's the way they are. The profile is similar to my MIJ Jackson Dinkys, if that gives you any frame of reference. And the weight is similar to the Dinkys as well.

So I'd look for one of those or a Class 5 or some other model that has a similar body configuration. Or maybe an ES Les Paul.

ETA: I just saw your last couple posts after posting this. So with that, I'd just look for something with a '60s neck. Like I said, they have a necessity feel.

 

[JMP/HBE]

Re: Gibson and Japanese Les Pauls



Ill stick with Japan. Im not paying Gibson prices anymore.

Their Bankruptcy issues are not my problem.

A stock no frills Gibson Les Paul Standard is $4K now and the prices only continue to climb.

 

[Darg1911]

Re: Gibson and Japanese Les Pauls

I have a Tokai (Japan) LP junior copy. The build is excellent and it's a great guitar. Only "knock" ... the pots were cheap and the stock P90 was just ok. I took care of that early on. I wouldn't take a Gibson Jr. over it (excepting the custom shop).

 

[justFred]

Re: Gibson and Japanese Les Pauls

if you don't want a Gibson Les Paul why buy a Japanese something copy? The Les Paul was designed over 65 years ago by a guy who played jazz sitting down. So why buy into this old design unless you want the genuine article? There are a veritable plethora of fine Japanese and American guitars that have come along since that offer improvements...for example look at the PRS Core McCarty 594.

 

[Darg1911]

Re: Gibson and Japanese Les Pauls

Maybe because not everyone sees things the same way that you do.

Why does it bother you so much?

 

[Ben1962]

Re: Gibson and Japanese Les Pauls

Edwards are just ESP guitars for the Japanese market. The ones made in Japan are not cheap at all, not much behind the MIA guitars. I would buy one in a heart beat, they do rival the American mades in every way, but they aint Gibsons. Gibson sucks now anyway. Scott Grove told me that their QC went way down and they are junk. Same with tube amps, all crap

 

[Ben1962]

Re: Gibson and Japanese Les Pauls

Yea, Gibson sux . The Japanese companies are way cooler, even if they just copy from others designs. The way they get in ice baths in the middle of winter is cosmic!!

 

[JMP/HBE]

Re: Gibson and Japanese Les Pauls

if you don't want a Gibson Les Paul why buy a Japanese something copy? The Les Paul was designed over 65 years ago by a guy who played jazz sitting down. So why buy into this old design unless you want the genuine article? There are a veritable plethora of fine Japanese and American guitars that have come along since that offer improvements...for example look at the PRS Core McCarty 594.

Freedom of Choice, i spend my money on what i choose.
The Customer is always right.

 

[jeremy]

Re: Gibson and Japanese Les Pauls

why do i care what scott grove thinks? and why is an ice bath cosmic?