Going direct. Do I need a power amp?

[Alonso Ortega]

Hi guys, I wanna try going direct, but I don't know if I need a power amp pedal (like the magnum 44) or if I would be ok with a cab sim + DI.

If I wasn't clear this is the signal chain I have in mind:

Guitar -> Drive -> EQ -> Reverb -> DI/Cab Sim (Think Hughes and Kettner Red Box) -> Mixer

Am I missing something?

 

[VinceT]

Re: Going direct. Do I need a power amp?

Alonso - I think it all depends on the Drive you're using. If it's on the fuzz end of the spectrum, the sound isn't going to be that inspiring. If it's a more rounded OD/Distortion (e.g. a Fulltone Plimsoul or OCD) then you're more likely to get away with it. If it's a more amp in a box drive, such as the Tech21 Sansamp or Flyrig, then you'll be even closer.

Aside from tone, though, there's a responsiveness under the fingers that, for me, only comes from power tube characteristics, so I'd lean to having a power amp or amp sim pedal in the chain, and not just rely on the drive.

Best of luck!


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[Aceman]

Re: Going direct. Do I need a power amp?

NO! Do NOT run a power amp straight into a board!!!!!!!! Ouch!!!!! NO NO NO!!!!!!

Power amp is for adding power to a speaker.

You need some sort of gain pedal to get the right level to the board but not juice! Almost any gain pedal will work; OD, Distortion, even a Compressor.

The DI/cab sim should be enough on it's own. Or a Distortion pedal with the level NOT set to 10. (Just don't ever turn it off!!!!)

 

[Mincer]

Re: Going direct. Do I need a power amp?

You don't want to use a power amp into the mixer. Just go direct. If you want onstage monitoring, grab something like the PowerStage 170 and go into a cabinet.

 

[devastone]

Re: Going direct. Do I need a power amp?

You'll probably get better results by putting some kind of preamp or amp simulator in there too, the Tech 21 ones are great, and you can get the Joyo clones on ebay for less than $40. There are also the new Mooer mini preamps, the AMT ones, and dozens of others. And, if it has a cab sim built in, which most of them do, you just need a straight DI box.

 

[Alonso Ortega]

Re: Going direct. Do I need a power amp?

Thanks guys. Actually the drive I have in mind is an AMT that has a cab sim, hope it works fine.

 

[devastone]

Re: Going direct. Do I need a power amp?

The AMT stuff is great, I used a SS-11b for years.

 

[2ndhandband]

Re: Going direct. Do I need a power amp?

I am speaking as a professional FOH soundman. Don't. A real cab still sounds better.

 

[Jacew]

Re: Going direct. Do I need a power amp?

Alonso - I think it all depends on the Drive you're using. If it's on the fuzz end of the spectrum, the sound isn't going to be that inspiring. If it's a more rounded OD/Distortion (e.g. a Fulltone Plimsoul or OCD) then you're more likely to get away with it. If it's a more amp in a box drive, such as the Tech21 Sansamp or Flyrig, then you'll be even closer.

Aside from tone, though, there's a responsiveness under the fingers that, for me, only comes from power tube characteristics, so I'd lean to having a power amp or amp sim pedal in the chain, and not just rely on the drive.

True. I would like to add that those characteristics come mostly from tube preamp rather than power amp.

 

[2ndhandband]

Re: Going direct. Do I need a power amp?

True. I would like to add that those characteristics come mostly from tube preamp rather than power amp.

True story... the preamp is probably 80% or better of the sound of a tube amp.

I have mixed feelings about the things as a FOH engineer. On one hand, they make my job easier. On the other, the tone is just never quite what you want it to be. I'll tell you one thing tho... overall I've actually seen better results with Line 6 stuff than those pricey Axe-FX units. I don't think it's necessarily that the units are bad-sounding... from what I've seen I think they're just too damn hard to dial. The best results I've encountered direct were a Kemper, and in that instance the guitar player had the amp he was trying to profile AND his kemper so we could A/B them in a live setting. Even through the PA the amp was still the clear winner, but the Kemper came closer than anything else I've seen.

 

[Johnny the Kid]

Re: Going direct. Do I need a power amp?

I am speaking as a professional FOH soundman. Don't. A real cab still sounds better.

I am speaking as a student, why not? If you get a really good cab sim like the Blu Guitar BluBox, yeah it won't sound 100% like a real cab, but it can probably get you 99% of the way there, on top of the fact that you don't have to carry around a cab.

 

[nsnate02]

Re: Going direct. Do I need a power amp?

Thanks guys. Actually the drive I have in mind is an AMT that has a cab sim, hope it works fine.

I'm running an AMT ss-11a and I love it! I tried the Tech 21 Liverpool and Blonde. Really liked them, but found the Joyo AC Tone and American sounded just as good but cost a lot less.

Then I got the AMT and it is just that much better. Beautiful cleans and the crunch and lead channels are awesome. True tube sound and 3 channels. Effects loop as well. Pricey but worth it after trying the others. Takes pedals well too.

 

[2ndhandband]

Re: Going direct. Do I need a power amp?

I am speaking as a student, why not? If you get a really good cab sim like the Blu Guitar BluBox, yeah it won't sound 100% like a real cab, but it can probably get you 99% of the way there, on top of the fact that you don't have to carry around a cab.

In my experience it's not 99% of the way there or anywhere near it. You can nail the average guy's guitar tone going direct, but I've never heard EPIC tone going direct. And I've mixed plenty of guys using direct gear.

Honestly, the old ways are still the best. The best tones I have ever miced into a PA have all been gotten the same way: a tube head cranked ridiculously loud. I was once house engineer for a fly-in show by an artist you have heard of; a shred guitarist who was famous back in the 80s. We were in a room that maybe held 400. His rig was so loud that his engineer had to gun that PA for all it was worth to get everybody else in balance with him (and it was DEAFENING in there) but the tone he had was godly.

Volume is tone.

 

[Johnny the Kid]

Re: Going direct. Do I need a power amp?

In my experience it's not 99% of the way there or anywhere near it. You can nail the average guy's guitar tone going direct, but I've never heard EPIC tone going direct. And I've mixed plenty of guys using direct gear.

Honestly, the old ways are still the best. The best tones I have ever miced into a PA have all been gotten the same way: a tube head cranked ridiculously loud. I was once house engineer for a fly-in show by an artist you have heard of; a shred guitarist who was famous back in the 80s. We were in a room that maybe held 400. His rig was so loud that his engineer had to gun that PA for all it was worth to get everybody else in balance with him (and it was DEAFENING in there) but the tone he had was godly.

Volume is tone.

You've never heard epic tone going direct, but I have. For me, volume doesn't equal tone. Tone is subjective, and in the world of modeling rigs and amp simulators, tone has become a series of 1's and 0's. Analog isn't always best.

 

[2ndhandband]

Re: Going direct. Do I need a power amp?

You've never heard epic tone going direct, but I have.

Fair enough... I have never seen it. I've heard good tone, but never amazing tone. I was house engineer about a year ago for a moderately successful modern rock group... rhythm guitar player was using Egnators and lead guy was using an Axe FX straight to house. The rhythm guitarist had much, much better tone. It was one of the most flagrant examples I've seen.

 

[Johnny the Kid]

Re: Going direct. Do I need a power amp?

Fair enough... I have never seen it. I've heard good tone, but never amazing tone. I was house engineer about a year ago for a moderately successful modern rock group... rhythm guitar player was using Egnators and lead guy was using an Axe FX straight to house. The rhythm guitarist had much, much better tone. It was one of the most flagrant examples I've seen.

But once again that's your opinion. And the audience doesn't care. The audience just wants to know if they're going to play [Hit song]. I will say Egnators are fantastic amps, but I don't think the difference between tube and modeling is that stark anymore. On top of the fact that load in for the lead player takes like 16 seconds vs loading in the amps and cabs.

Don't get me wrong, I do love having a cab on stage because I enjoy stage volume (most PA speakers aren't aimed for the first few rows) and I enjoy using controlled feedback. But I know I can go direct and not have any real issues with tone.

 

[Jacew]

Re: Going direct. Do I need a power amp?

You've never heard epic tone going direct, but I have. For me, volume doesn't equal tone. Tone is subjective, and in the world of modeling rigs and amp simulators, tone has become a series of 1's and 0's. Analog isn't always best.

Most perfect live tone i've heard was Accept recently. Kemper direct, if I'm not completely mistaken. Right with the start I thought it was just too perfect sounding (I had to check internet after the show, because I was sure it wasn't real Marshall). I couldn't really get past that...

No. Things were better before digital. It's just too easy to overdo it and lose the grit that makes rock great.

 

[Johnny the Kid]

Re: Going direct. Do I need a power amp?

Most perfect live tone i've heard was Accept recently. Kemper direct, if I'm not completely mistaken. Right with the start I thought it was just too perfect sounding (I had to check internet after the show, because I was sure it wasn't real Marshall). I couldn't really get past that...

No. Things were better before digital. It's just too easy to overdo it and lose the grit that makes rock great.

So what you're saying is that the best live tone that you've ever heard was from a Kemper direct into PA, and after you realized that, it was no longer the best live tone that you've ever heard? That seems biased as hell.

 

[Jacew]

Re: Going direct. Do I need a power amp?

So what you're saying is that the best live tone that you've ever heard was from a Kemper direct into PA, and after you realized that, it was no longer the best live tone that you've ever heard? That seems biased as hell.

By perfect, I mean tone that just sounds "like a record". I know studio guys are always aiming for that perfectly balanced, smoothed tone, which often flattens out the modern albums. Iron Maiden is one of the best examples of good studio tone in 21st century, simply because their producer is aiming at the classic grittier tone.

When I hear that Balls to the Wall riff live, I don't want it to sound like on album. I want to feel that Marshall scream. It's hard to explain, but I felt there was something missing. I had to check out and found the culprit.

Fun fact: The best sounding Ramones album I've heard has been, and is, the c-cassette in my Toyota Hilux. With all stock audio gear. It just sound incredibly "authentic", in a lack of a better word.

 

[some_dude]

Re: Going direct. Do I need a power amp?

One thing to consider is that if you go direct you're at the mercy of the house monitors and monitor mix.

In my band both the keyboard player and myself (bass) run direct, and we both carry our own amps for stage volume. Both of us have been burned by less than ideal monitoring and it causes problems for the rest of the band when we can't be heard.

My acoustic player has stopped running direct and now uses a mic'd guitar amp because we got tired of not being able to hear him on stage. Sounds better too.

If you have a dedicated soundman/rig and/or using in-ears then everything changes... but if you're playing local dives with whatever the venue has on hand then I like to retain as much control of my onstage sound as I can.