Good passive alternative to blackouts

[elflord1973]

I am thinking of replacing the pickups in an Ibanez 7 string that cones stock with passive pickups (it came with the DiMarzio fuzion edge , and replaced with the dimarzio blaze in the bridge).

I have blackouts on my 6 string schecter and am very fond of the sound (I also liked the ff moderns on ny agile 7 string) but would like to avoid the hassle and hotrodding needed to get an active pickup in a guitar not built for one.

So what are the good alternatives? I'm looking for something that is nice and tight, punchybmids and not too much flabby low end. Doesn't hVe to be high output like the blackouts (probably not even possible with a passive), but I'm hoping for similar tonal characteristics. This going to be running into a high gain amp with a lot of technical palm mutes stuff. Needs to be tight and mid focused

In the demos the nazgul seems closest to me. Are there any others I should look at ?

 

[Rex_Rocker]

I personally found Blackouts have A LOT of low-end, even by passive standards. We're talking about the AHB-1's, right? Not the EMTYs?

I'd think the only thing in the passive realm that I've tried that comes close to the BO's output is the Black Winter set. But I find the BW's tighter.

Yeah, I'd say you try the BW's.

Personally, I find the X2N to be more in line with the EQ of the Blackouts, though. But the BW's way tighter, IMO.

 

[elflord1973]

Yes the ahb1 pickups, as shipped stock in the old schecter blackjack guitar.

the x2n sounds quite nice to me in demos. I felt like the black winter had too much treble and not enough mid.

I don't need a lot of output, my amp (peavey xxx) has ludicrous amounts of gain, with the blackout it never goes past 9:00 in normal playing.

 

[Demanic]

I personally found Blackouts have A LOT of low-end, even by passive standards. We're talking about the AHB-1's, right? Not the EMTYs?

I'd think the only thing in the passive realm that I've tried that comes close to the BO's output is the Black Winter set. But I find the BW's tighter.

Yeah, I'd say you try the BW's.

Personally, I find the X2N to be more in line with the EQ of the Blackouts, though. But the BW's way tighter, IMO.

Dimarzio D-Activators.

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[JOLLY]

It seems like I remember Frank Falbo stating that the Blackouts were based off of the Jazz Model pickups. Now the Jazzes aren't anywhere near the Blackouts in output, but I can hear the similarities tonally.

 

[elflord1973]

It's too bad its near impossible to find examples of the jazz.in the bridge., in pretty much all examples I can find its used as a neck pickups

 

[Mincer]

It's too bad its near impossible to find examples of the jazz.in the bridge., in pretty much all examples I can find its used as a neck pickups

This is true, but there a lot of people here that have used the Jazz bridge pickup, so hopefully they can share their experiences.

 

[Rex_Rocker]

Yes the ahb1 pickups, as shipped stock in the old schecter blackjack guitar.

the x2n sounds quite nice to me in demos. I felt like the black winter had too much treble and not enough mid.

I don't need a lot of output, my amp (peavey xxx) has ludicrous amounts of gain, with the blackout it never goes past 9:00 in normal playing.

Nah, the BW is all mids, LOL. We were having a discussion about it some threads ago. https://forum.seymourduncan.com/foru...er-in-mahogany It's just a different kind of mid voicing than the Blackouts. More cutting and attacky rather than fat and full.

The X2N is less mid-pushed than the BW, but more bassy and darker. I think the X2N is sort of along the lines of the Blackouts, honestly.

The Nazgul is also pretty mid-heavy, but that one is brighter than the Black Winter even.

I personally always felt Duncan's Blackouts set out to address everyone's complaint about the 81 being too thin and sterile. But in the process, they just made the antithesis of the 81, to an extent. Not trying to disregard you liking the Blackouts, but don't discount any of the more recent Duncan metal offerings. I think you'd be surprised how tight and chunky they all are!

But from the Ducan line, the Invader does kinda have those kind of fat/full low mids that the Blackouts also have. Way darker, though.

Also, keep in mind, the lower output and lower DCR you go, the less mids you're generally going to get. Not always, but most of the time. Especially since people are recommending the Jazz and the Jazz is probably one of the least mid-forward Duncans I can think of.

 

[elflord1973]

Nah, the BW is all mids, LOL. We were having a discussion about it some threads ago. https://forum.seymourduncan.com/foru...er-in-mahogany It's just a different kind of mid voicing than the Blackouts. More cutting and attacky rather than fat and full.

The X2N is less mid-pushed than the BW, but more bassy and darker. I think the X2N is sort of along the lines of the Blackouts, honestly.

The Nazgul is also pretty mid-heavy, but that one is brighter than the Black Winter even.

I personally always felt Duncan's Blackouts set out to address everyone's complaint about the 81 being too thin and sterile. But in the process, they just made the antithesis of the 81, to an extent. Not trying to disregard you liking the Blackouts, but don't discount any of the more recent Duncan metal offerings. I think you'd be surprised how tight and chunky they all are!

But from the Ducan line, the Invader does kinda have those kind of fat/full low mids that the Blackouts also have. Way darker, though.

Also, keep in mind, the lower output and lower DCR you go, the less mids you're generally going to get. Not always, but most of the time. Especially since people are recommending the Jazz and the Jazz is probably one of the least mid-forward Duncans I can think of.

Watching the videos like this : (nazgul vs Duncan, Mike Stamper), at 3:30 with the chug riff, on the palm muted powerchords you more or less just hear the low string on the black winter whereas there's a nice "crunch" on the nazgul, like part of the midrange got scooped out on the black winter. It might be high mids pre-gain but post-gain it is largely articulation with some boom and not much crunch. Thesse are going to be used with a 7 string which will enhance any "boominess".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwJNDcTA118

here's the X2N vs blackout, it does have some nice crunching going on (again see 3:30) not as dark as the blackout. On the riff with the trills at ~3:17 you can really hear some kind of mid push on the blackouts, like something coming out of a really hot overdrive.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YmtuY38uBo

Same deal with the black winter lined up against the EMG 81, again at 3:30 you really hear much more "crunchiness" in the EMG https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VF87ARVx48 the black winter feels like it would need an OD to get rid of some of the boominess and add some snarl to the lower mids.

The D Activator seems pretty tight, brighter than the blackout, nice and crunchy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qleRVE8ANeU

The main concern I have about something with too much lows / not enough mids is that you push low end (especially from the low B string) through some gain and you get a lot of sustain in the bass and a lot of mud, especially on palm muted power chord riiffs. You get muffled booming instead of tight chugging. This can't really be corrected on amp EQ because you want bass in the tone, but you don't want a lot of sustain in the bass especially on palm mutes where you are trying to *not* sustain. You can correct this with an overdrive pedal but I'd rather have the right pickup.

 

[Rex_Rocker]

Take those comparisons as a grain of salt, man. I really like his channel, but many of his clips were recorded at different times. Don't know what might have changed in his signal chain, but I find the differences don't always translate exactly. Especially since there seems to be some normalization of the volumes going on.

1. I assure you, the Black Winter is anything but scooped. I have had them both the 'Winter and the Nazgul in the same guitar recently. The Nazgul may have a touch more low mids, but it's also much brighter up top. I actually decided on the Black Winter for my guitar because I found the Nazgul too twangy and the Winter smoother, so go figure. I wouldn't have been unhappy with either, but since I already had the BW, I just decided to go for what I liked best.

2. I do hear the mid push that you mean on the Blackouts in that clip. Those are lower mids. Perhaps you and I have different taste in pickups. I like the high mids that cut, give clarity, and aggression. I don't like the low mids that lean towards fullness and fatness, but also towards mud if left unchecked. Again, not a bad thing at all. We all look for different things. Hence why I suggested the X2N vs. the BW. I like the BW myself. I just thought you might like the X2N better.

3. Yep, every passive is going to sound "scooped" compared to an 81. No exception. EMG's have a highpass/lopass effect to the preamp that makes them very characteristic and that Blackouts were designed not to. This is what the EQ curve of an EMG 81/Fishman Fluence Modern looks like vs a Passive. Keep in mind, Fluences in Voice 1 were designed to sound like an 81, just better.



4. The D Activator might be a cool option as well! Take a look into those. Honestly, on both clips of the X2N and the D'Ac, they came out as crisper/tighter vs. the Blackout's low mid focus.

I am not new to the whole "less bass before the preamp means tighter". I play metal as well. I also had a Triple XXX at some point. Hell, so much so that I prefer my Fishman Moderns/KSE's to any passive for that reason. What I do think you and I differ in is that you look for the fat/growly low mids of a blackout, and I look for the cutting/aggressive hid mids in something else. But my suggeston for the X2N still holds, then.

 

[weepingminotaur]

In no universe is the Black Winter scooped. It is a mid-focused pickup.

 

[JOLLY]

It's too bad its near impossible to find examples of the jazz.in the bridge., in pretty much all examples I can find its used as a neck pickups

I have sound clips that I made of the Jazz bridge and Blackouts. I'm playing the same riff, and used the same amp settings. I'll try to remember to load them up this afternoon when I get home.

 

[Rex_Rocker]

In no universe is the Black Winter scooped. It is a mid-focused pickup.

Very much so. One of the most mid-focused Duncans, IME. And one of the tightest as well.

 

[Masta' C]

I'm late to the party...Black Winter "scooped"? Since when? LOL!

As for the Blackouts, keep in mind that the coils of the Blackouts may have been based on the lower output winds of the Jazz, but the Blackouts preamp is heavily modifying the sound and output. A regular jazz simply isn't going to give you the same sound or, more importantly, the response and character of a blackout.

The Nazgul has an exaggerated upper midrange response (not unlike the JB, but with the emphasized frequencies shifted slightly) with reduced mid-mids and an extended, yet thumpy bottom end. It makes for crunchy, yet heavy sounding palm mutes and a surprisingly good soloing voice, but it's not the most versatile pickup and can be very picky about the guitar it's in (moreso than the JB, in my experience). Definitely doesn't sound anything like a Blackouts, though!

If you want a passive replacement for the Blackouts from the Duncan camp, you're looking at something like the Invader set or maybe the Jupiter set...something with an extra dose of bass and mids and a top end that is broad, but not overly brash. The PATB-2 is also something to consider.

Outside of the Duncan camp, I'd say check out the DiMarzio D-Activator "X" series (rather than the regular D-Activators). The "X" versions don't get discussed as much as they should these days, but they are great pickups with a lot of body and output and will give you a Blackouts-like tone and feel at a very reasonable price.

Next step up would be the Anderson H3 and H3+ models. Honestly, these are probably the most "Blackouts-like" since they're big sounding and plenty hot, but also have a level of clarity that just seems to define the Anderson models, but they cost a little more than your typical Duncan or DiMarzio offering.

 

[Rex_Rocker]

I think what the OP may be hearing is that indeed, the BW doesn't have as much of those growly/fat lower mids as the Blackouts do. So I'm assuming that's what the OP wants in a pickup whe he's asking for a pickpup that has lots of mids.

Then again, I caution the OP to go for pickups like that if you want tight. Those kind of mids more often than not lean towards the opposide side of the spectrum.

Original Blackouts in general are not the tightest pickups, IMO. At least if you compare them to the archetypical active pickup, the EMG 81. They weren't meant to. They were supposed to be bigger, broader, more passive-like, which is kind of exactly the opposite. But that's just my perception, and we all hear things differently. But that's also exactly why Mick Thomson had them tame the lows on his version of the BO's.

Not trying to tell you what you like is wrong, but keep in mind I'm in the same camp as you. I like tight bridge pickups without a lot of low-end and an emphasis in mids. I play metal as well with lots of palm-muted gallops. I tune to Drop C and Drop B. Hell, I even used to have a Triple XXX that I loved at some point, and I find those can have a ridiculous amount of gain if you're not too careful.

JMO.

 

[elflord1973]

Thanks for all the insights. It is a bit confusing,, something that has a lot of upper mids might sound very treblg when pushed through heavy gain.. and "mids" encomlass most of the usage part of the guitar range. But yes I'm thinking of the "snarl" and "thump".

Leaning towards x2n and d activator now. according to dimarzios docs they should be more balanced than the blaze i have now. The nazgul does scare me a little seems like it might be a bit temperamental. I'll take another look at the invader

 

[Rex_Rocker]

I do agree with you that more mids and less lows pre-distortion stages usually yields tighter tones. But "mids" is a very broad frequency range. Yes, you're right, guitars distort better in the midrange (tighter and less harsh), exactly why we use Tube Screamer to tighten up amps. But I usually find there is a lot of mud to be had from the lower mids, lots of honk to be had from the core mids, and harshness from the high mids. But those are all just arbitrary frequency ranges that I found work for me to describe tone.

I consider "snarl" those upper mids that cut and sound aggressive. Sorta like a dog snarling, LOL. Those sorta EMG 81/Celestion V30/Boss SD-1 kinda mids. To me, those are the "good" kind of mids for tightness.

Of course, also if your pickup is totally devoid of the other kinds of mids, it just sounds bad/weird. And when a pickup is "mid heavy", it usually comes with all the types of mids that I described to varying degrees, depending on the pickup. And to me, there is also a thing as "too tight" when the pickup just becomes sterile and hard to play through. But we all have different thresholds for that.

I guess we all look for a different balance. You seem to be able to make Blackouts work for you. I personally thought they were too fat for my taste, and I prefer leaner pickups. That's what I consider tighter and more snarly. But I still consider that I like mid-focused pickups like the EMG 81, 57, Fishman Fluence Modern Alnico, JB, and Black Winter.

I don't consider a Black Winter trebly. Cutting and focused, yeah. But If you've ever played a Dimebucker or even a Duncan '59 in the bridge or a Custom, I find those way treblier. Hell, even a Distortion which is a relatively similar pickup is more sizzly than the BW.

An Invader, for example, is also mid-heavy, but not the right kind of mid-heavy that I look for.

But being objective and more helpful, I do think you'd like the X2N.

 

[elflord1973]

that gives me something to think about. I like the blackouts ... on my 6 string. Haven't tried them on a 7. My other 7 string guitar has FF moderns on them and I do like these. I need to push the bass on the amp EQ with these, but that's the way to get a tight tone (less lows in front of the gain, and then dial them back after). I listened to the invader samples, and it sounded pretty decent, a little on the fat side. So I think I still like the D Activator and the X2N.

Just last night I tried configuring a patch on my fractal fm3 that is just an overdrive pedal with some low cut and it really helped liven up the tone. Thiunking now I should get the X2N and a boost pedal (maybe the green one) that I can use to dial in additional "mid push" as necessary

 

[Aceman]

Dimarzio D-Activators.

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This

 

[dave74]

Depends on the guitar IMO.

If it has some natural squish to the lows and a softer high-end, like many guitars with basswood bodies, then I prefer the X2N.

For a bright guitar with a snappy low-end, especially with a floyd, I'll go Invader over the X2N.

D'activator-X is often forgotten but it is a seriously good alternative in a guitar that is naturally mid-focused or "stuffy" in the mids. It's like a slightly decompressed X2N.