Heavy Metal without Pedals or hot pickups
- Thread starter Wayne27
- Start date
ItsaBass
New member
Re: Heavy Metal without Pedals or hot pickups
Gain is a function of the amp. If you want more, just turn up the gain knob and/or hit the strings harder so the amp has less work to do.
A high output pickup allows you to use less gain on the amp and/or hit the strings softer. With a low output pickup, you just need more gain on the amp and/or a harder right hand to compensate.
Those who cut their teeth on high output pickups will sound wimpy on low output pickups, until they learn to adjust their picking. Vice versa too. Those (like me) who cut their teeth on low output pickups will sound overly heavy and compressed on high output pickups...until they learn to use a lighter touch.
There is no "for heavy metal" tone. Metal tones are all over the map. The best of them, IMO, are basically just a juicy, bluesy tone picked hard through a cranked amp, in the days when the only people who knew what "gain" was were the amp designers and techs – amps didn't have any gain knobs.
So, if you ask me, not only can you get good overdrive with a low output pickup, but you can get the best overdrive that way. "Best" being subjective, of course...but those are the aggressive metal tones that I like the best.
Gain is a function of the amp. If you want more, just turn up the gain knob and/or hit the strings harder so the amp has less work to do.
A high output pickup allows you to use less gain on the amp and/or hit the strings softer. With a low output pickup, you just need more gain on the amp and/or a harder right hand to compensate.
Those who cut their teeth on high output pickups will sound wimpy on low output pickups, until they learn to adjust their picking. Vice versa too. Those (like me) who cut their teeth on low output pickups will sound overly heavy and compressed on high output pickups...until they learn to use a lighter touch.
There is no "for heavy metal" tone. Metal tones are all over the map. The best of them, IMO, are basically just a juicy, bluesy tone picked hard through a cranked amp, in the days when the only people who knew what "gain" was were the amp designers and techs – amps didn't have any gain knobs.
So, if you ask me, not only can you get good overdrive with a low output pickup, but you can get the best overdrive that way. "Best" being subjective, of course...but those are the aggressive metal tones that I like the best.
Last edited:
Jacew
New member
Re: Heavy Metal without Pedals or hot pickups
"Gain" is often misused term. In this thread as well. What you really are after is distortion.
Gain not a function, but a scale. Low output pickups put out less gain, high output put more. It doesn't create any grit or distorted tone (but hitting strings heavy does).
With high output pickups you get distortion when output hits the first stage of preamp and overdrives it. That preamp can be any pedal or amp. Level of distortion depends how much headroom that preamp has.
Most pedals do their distortion with clipping diodes, which is different thing. Some "high gain" (another misnomer, should be "high distortion") amps do that as well. Others (like 6505) cascade input through multiple overdriven tubes, each adding more, to achieve high distortion levels.
So in a nutshell, everytime you overdrive next stage in you rig, you get distortion, which you do by adding gain. Some amps only have couple of stages to add distortion, so you need pedal or high output pickup for "high gain" playing. Others (like mentioned 6505) have multiple stages and will get there with any gain level at the input.
"Gain" is often misused term. In this thread as well. What you really are after is distortion.
Gain not a function, but a scale. Low output pickups put out less gain, high output put more. It doesn't create any grit or distorted tone (but hitting strings heavy does).
With high output pickups you get distortion when output hits the first stage of preamp and overdrives it. That preamp can be any pedal or amp. Level of distortion depends how much headroom that preamp has.
Most pedals do their distortion with clipping diodes, which is different thing. Some "high gain" (another misnomer, should be "high distortion") amps do that as well. Others (like 6505) cascade input through multiple overdriven tubes, each adding more, to achieve high distortion levels.
So in a nutshell, everytime you overdrive next stage in you rig, you get distortion, which you do by adding gain. Some amps only have couple of stages to add distortion, so you need pedal or high output pickup for "high gain" playing. Others (like mentioned 6505) have multiple stages and will get there with any gain level at the input.
El Dunco
Sock Supplier to RHCP
Re: Heavy Metal without Pedals or hot pickups
I take it you're after something you can just take your cable from your guitar right into the amp and be ready to rip. It sounds like you want something like a Mesa Boogie Mark V, Anything designed by Mike Fortin (modern Randall tube amps like the Thrasher), a Fryette Pitbull, one of the new EVH 5150s, just about any decent ENGL, the Marshall JVM and countless other amps (I'm not sure what your budget is but there's pretty much a solution for every income bracket) with lots of onboard distortion, but more importantly are designed for modern metal tones (tight, percussive, voiced with heavy riffs in mind from the ground up) right out of the box.
The amount of distortion alone isn't as important as the quality of it and how it reacts to your guitar and playing. It pretty much comes down to what your specific musical needs are. The best way to get started is to get down to a music store or hit up some friends with those kinds of amps and give them a try until you find the one that does what you want. Remember that cabinets and speakers are a very important part of the equation too.
I take it you're after something you can just take your cable from your guitar right into the amp and be ready to rip. It sounds like you want something like a Mesa Boogie Mark V, Anything designed by Mike Fortin (modern Randall tube amps like the Thrasher), a Fryette Pitbull, one of the new EVH 5150s, just about any decent ENGL, the Marshall JVM and countless other amps (I'm not sure what your budget is but there's pretty much a solution for every income bracket) with lots of onboard distortion, but more importantly are designed for modern metal tones (tight, percussive, voiced with heavy riffs in mind from the ground up) right out of the box.
The amount of distortion alone isn't as important as the quality of it and how it reacts to your guitar and playing. It pretty much comes down to what your specific musical needs are. The best way to get started is to get down to a music store or hit up some friends with those kinds of amps and give them a try until you find the one that does what you want. Remember that cabinets and speakers are a very important part of the equation too.
PFDarkside
of the Forum
Re: Heavy Metal without Pedals or hot pickups
Heavy metal is how you play....
That said it’s a lot easier to get an amp that will distort than try to do it with a vintage Fender or Marshall. You can get an older modeler, they don’t even care what pickups you use, they make everything sound the same. Newer ones can be tweaked to sound like anything you want no matter what you are feeding them with.
Heavy metal is how you play....
That said it’s a lot easier to get an amp that will distort than try to do it with a vintage Fender or Marshall. You can get an older modeler, they don’t even care what pickups you use, they make everything sound the same. Newer ones can be tweaked to sound like anything you want no matter what you are feeding them with.
NegativeEase
New member
Re: Heavy Metal without Pedals or hot pickups
Sure, the sound of metal comes from your metal heart.
Sure, the sound of metal comes from your metal heart.
dystrust
New member
Re: Heavy Metal without Pedals or hot pickups
Maybe there's something of a language barrier at play, but the usage of "gain" in this post isn't entirely correct either.
Gain is a scale; specifically how much signal strength is increased by a stage of amplification be it a pedal, amp, or something else. Passive pickups don't have gain by definition because they don't amplify anything. Active pickups incorporate a preamp stage which can amplify signal, but they're typically designed merely to output a low impedance signal. Low or high output pickups simply produce a weaker or stronger signal respectively.
High gain is absolutely the correct term for these amps. Their preamp stage(s) have large amounts of amplification (gain), and subsequent stages are designed to run out of headroom intentionally causing distortion. With tube amps it's even possible to change the amount of available preamp gain by using different tubes. For example the 12AX7 spec states an amplification factor of 100, while a 5751 has an amplification factor of 70 and a 12AY7 has an amplification factor of 45. These factors literally compare how much gain the given tube provides.
Maybe there's something of a language barrier at play, but the usage of "gain" in this post isn't entirely correct either.
Gain is a scale; specifically how much signal strength is increased by a stage of amplification be it a pedal, amp, or something else. Passive pickups don't have gain by definition because they don't amplify anything. Active pickups incorporate a preamp stage which can amplify signal, but they're typically designed merely to output a low impedance signal. Low or high output pickups simply produce a weaker or stronger signal respectively.
High gain is absolutely the correct term for these amps. Their preamp stage(s) have large amounts of amplification (gain), and subsequent stages are designed to run out of headroom intentionally causing distortion. With tube amps it's even possible to change the amount of available preamp gain by using different tubes. For example the 12AX7 spec states an amplification factor of 100, while a 5751 has an amplification factor of 70 and a 12AY7 has an amplification factor of 45. These factors literally compare how much gain the given tube provides.
IMENATOR
Well-known member
Re: Heavy Metal without Pedals or hot pickups
Sure, as long as the amp is high gain. In my mind a discreto guitar power amp (PowerStage, Stealth) and a preamp pedal (Mooer UK Gold, AMT S2, etc) are am affordable way to create am affordable and small high gain amp head.
Sure, as long as the amp is high gain. In my mind a discreto guitar power amp (PowerStage, Stealth) and a preamp pedal (Mooer UK Gold, AMT S2, etc) are am affordable way to create am affordable and small high gain amp head.
El Dunco
Sock Supplier to RHCP
Re: Heavy Metal without Pedals or hot pickups
It's pretty obvious he just wants to know about amps you can plug right into and get a good metal tone. Why is that such a big deal? Even chiding him for what he means by "metal" isn't necessary as most amps you can dial in for an up-to-the-minute modern tone can cover early, lighter styles as well. It's a simple question one sentence long. It doesn't require such over-analysis.
https://amtelectronics.com/new/cat/guitar-preamps-legend-amps-ii/
http://www.mooeraudio.com/nav/PREAMP-24.html
I'm pretty sure some of Mooers multi-fx have all their micro-preamp sounds built in. The preamp live does for sure. I kinda want one of those because it seems like an affordable, floor-based Kemper.
It's pretty obvious he just wants to know about amps you can plug right into and get a good metal tone. Why is that such a big deal? Even chiding him for what he means by "metal" isn't necessary as most amps you can dial in for an up-to-the-minute modern tone can cover early, lighter styles as well. It's a simple question one sentence long. It doesn't require such over-analysis.
This is a very good option for affordable and not to mention compact way of achieving those sounds which is a godsend if you're interested in playing any shows that involve flying interstate or overseas so if any of the amps I mentioned are out of your price range, this is a perfectly legitimate way of going about it. Some of them are even modeled in those Mooer micro and AMT preamps. You can check them out here.
https://amtelectronics.com/new/cat/guitar-preamps-legend-amps-ii/
http://www.mooeraudio.com/nav/PREAMP-24.html
I'm pretty sure some of Mooers multi-fx have all their micro-preamp sounds built in. The preamp live does for sure. I kinda want one of those because it seems like an affordable, floor-based Kemper.
GuitarStv
Sock Market Trader
Re: Heavy Metal without Pedals or hot pickups
Especially useful if you're very into recycling and want to collect beer bottles thrown at you by the crowd.
Especially useful if you're very into recycling and want to collect beer bottles thrown at you by the crowd.
IMENATOR
Well-known member
Re: Heavy Metal without Pedals or hot pickups
I have not tried the Powerstage 700 but I have the Stealth Stereo, costs less and still is quite loud, you can use it for stereo rigs, wet/dry rigs or mono rigs.
I have not tried the Powerstage 700 but I have the Stealth Stereo, costs less and still is quite loud, you can use it for stereo rigs, wet/dry rigs or mono rigs.
Edgecrusher
New member
Re: Heavy Metal without Pedals or hot pickups
Not really many metal songs turn into surf music when played without distortion.
Not really many metal songs turn into surf music when played without distortion.
IMENATOR
Well-known member
Re: Heavy Metal without Pedals or hot pickups
This is my AMT SS-20 into an Stealth Power Amp, iPhone camera. Distortion comes from the crunch channel cranked and using the guitar volume to go from clean to lead. I may need to do another video just to demonstrate how you can play metal with a Strat using that much gain.
This is my AMT SS-20 into an Stealth Power Amp, iPhone camera. Distortion comes from the crunch channel cranked and using the guitar volume to go from clean to lead. I may need to do another video just to demonstrate how you can play metal with a Strat using that much gain.
Jacew
New member
Re: Heavy Metal without Pedals or hot pickups
You're right, gain is the "level of amplification", so it doesn't apply to pickups, which are transducers. But it's same in practical sense, so I didn't really thought of that.
Since the gain is limited by the headroom of the tubes in preamp, the high gain preamp produces pretty much same gain as any usual cranked 12ax7 preamp. It's just more distorted. Sure it does that with high gain signal in circuit, but preamp as whole doesn't have more gain.
I mean, you can't get more gain from a tube that it can deliver, no matter how much gain signal that goes in have? Or am I mistaken about it?
You're right, gain is the "level of amplification", so it doesn't apply to pickups, which are transducers. But it's same in practical sense, so I didn't really thought of that.
Since the gain is limited by the headroom of the tubes in preamp, the high gain preamp produces pretty much same gain as any usual cranked 12ax7 preamp. It's just more distorted. Sure it does that with high gain signal in circuit, but preamp as whole doesn't have more gain.
I mean, you can't get more gain from a tube that it can deliver, no matter how much gain signal that goes in have? Or am I mistaken about it?
Aceman
I am your doctor of love!
Re: Heavy Metal without Pedals or hot pickups
Wayne, ignoring the Gain illuminati here on the technicals....and since you didn't specify exactly what zone of Heavy Metal you are talking about (Scorpions to Slayer or somewhere in between, or more extreme) I'll simply say...
"Yes"
Within 10 feet of me are a Mesa Stiletto Deuce, a Marshall VS100, and a Peavey Express 112. I will gladly play whatever metal you care to hear with any of those, using a Dean Cadillac with a set of Pearly Gates.
With certain pickups or one pedal added to the equation, I can certainly tailor the sound more, but it is not necessary at all. In fact, as the pedal/pickups add hotness, I'll turn the "gain" down...
Wayne, ignoring the Gain illuminati here on the technicals....and since you didn't specify exactly what zone of Heavy Metal you are talking about (Scorpions to Slayer or somewhere in between, or more extreme) I'll simply say...
"Yes"
Within 10 feet of me are a Mesa Stiletto Deuce, a Marshall VS100, and a Peavey Express 112. I will gladly play whatever metal you care to hear with any of those, using a Dean Cadillac with a set of Pearly Gates.
With certain pickups or one pedal added to the equation, I can certainly tailor the sound more, but it is not necessary at all. In fact, as the pedal/pickups add hotness, I'll turn the "gain" down...
ibanezrocks
HardtailPisser
Re: Heavy Metal without Pedals or hot pickups
Modern high gain amps don't require either pedals or high output pickups. The voicing and amount of gain available don't need any help. You probably don't want the spongy bass of an A2 pickup if you're playing fast stuff but for sludgier styles that could even help.
Sent from my BlackBerry using Tapatalk
Modern high gain amps don't require either pedals or high output pickups. The voicing and amount of gain available don't need any help. You probably don't want the spongy bass of an A2 pickup if you're playing fast stuff but for sludgier styles that could even help.
Sent from my BlackBerry using Tapatalk
