Help me design my next guitar- you guys have provided great pickup ideas in the past!

Z

zionstrat

Well-known member
Ok, time to start planning my next build- Although I don't play a lot of Tom Petty, what I'm looking for is a guitar that would cover practically all of the tones that they use.

Of course, that's a broad pallet and Cambell and Petty use a lot of guitars to get those sounds- I just want to be in the general ballpark for the following timbres-

1. Chimey, articulate, arpeggios (i.e. the waiting)
2. Clear, thinish rhythms
3. Tight, mildly overdriven rhythm crunch
3. Thick, unmuddy overdriven leads

Cambell and Petty appear to use telecasters with a covered mini in the neck (firebird?) a lot and I'm guessing that is the best starting point. So let's assume a maple neck tele with alder or ash body-

Givens-
1. Will have a middle pup for whatever 2 or 4 positions I can get
2. I like the 'view of the string' that a mini-hum or single coil sees as opposed to a full sized humbucker.
3. Dual coils preferred for noise canceling-
4. All dual coils will be 4 wire so I can mess around with coil combinations
5. Will use a 5 way superwitch and will have lots of alternate wiring

So take a look at the following and let me know what you think!

1. Bridge- Although a lot of their bright sounds are Rickenbacker’s, I was thinking a Flitertron would be more versatile?
I would wire for series and parallel with the option of a single coil combined with center pup. If you like this idea, what Flitertron makes the most sense?

One alternative would be stock tele with tele bridge plate- That would get bright, but probably not chimey.

Other alternatives?

2. My normally preferred center pup is a cruiser- low output, noiseless- works well in 2/4 positions- However, the cruiser is a very stratish pickup- Petty rarely sounds strat like - Also 2 and 4 position sounds are best with similar pickups and neither the bridge or neck will be strat like -

So I'm thinking of a 4 conductor firebird- Clean, low output, a little brighter and maybe a little thicker than a strat? Wondering what parallel or single coil matched with bridge and neck might sound like- If you like this idea, what Firebird would you go with? Alternatives?

3. Neck- The teles that Campbell and Petty use appear to have firebirds in the neck- That makes sense for clean/thin, however, I will use this pup for solos and most of Campbell’s solos are relatively thick. Although a p90 probably would provide thick, it's probably too thick and I'm not imagining it would provide a lot of versatility, especially when matched with other pups and the 4 position- So I was thinking of a covered mini-humbucker (i.e. Les Paul Deluxe).

My normal pup for the neck is a cool rail, but once again, that is probably to stratish. And haven't crossed the firebird off for this position- Firebirds can quack nicely if I have one in middle and neck, but quack isn't the #1 goal for this build.

Mini-hum recommends and alternatives appreciated-

I play through many amps, but for this exercise imagine a Peavey Classic 50 4*10 on the warmer side or a Music Man HD130 on the bright/big headroom side.

To sum it up, I don't expect to get exactly all of the Petty tones and this really isn’t about Petty- I’ve just used them as an example to describe the sounds I am looking for-

Appreciate all pup and wiring suggestions!
Zstrat/Mickey
 
Re: Help me design my next guitar- you guys have provided great pickup ideas in the p

This is crazy but how bout 4 pickups? Why not haha

Sent from my XT1563 using Tapatalk
 
Re: Help me design my next guitar- you guys have provided great pickup ideas in the p

johntheswan33 said:
This is crazy but how bout 4 pickups? Why not haha

Sent from my XT1563 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

Hmm, I get the Steve Morse, PRS 513 approach- combining singles to get humbuckers, but not sure how that would help this build- Did you have specific pups or combinations in mind?
 
Re: Help me design my next guitar- you guys have provided great pickup ideas in the p

Pretty sure Campbell has used the SD Custom Shop's Alnico Staple live in the past [sort of like a P-90 with large, adjustable height alnico polepieces]. P-90s are thick but fairly bright. I've certainly seen Campbell using those, too. And yes, various minihumbuckers. And Gold Foils. And just about any other weird vintage pickup they find that's entertaining.

For years, almost everyone I've liked using a 'tron I've noticed is using a TV Jones [Malcolm Young, Brian Setzer, ridiculous list of others not coming to mind at this hour]. Filter'Trons are not usually split, but the TV Jones Brian Setzer model does have 4 conductor wiring. And is a bit hotter than a standard 'tron, so easier to combine with other pickups. But maintains sparkle, IIRC it's using a dual resonance design [like DiMarzio's expired patent, or the '59/Custom Hybrid. There's tons of other models, like the perfectly vintage correct Ray Butts Ful-Fidelity, but I've no idea if they are available as 4-wire, but I suspect they'd be disappointing wired any fashion other than series [though I suppose you could wire them series with 1 coil from another pickup and make a HUGE humbucker, like Brian May's favorite pickup combos on the Red Special, but that seems to be wandering rather far away from Campbell/Petty tones...]

I don't know where I'd start for Petty/Campbell sounds, as over time they've used so many different setups. Most of the live videos I've looked at for years haven't been remotely stock teles, usually some mix of P-90s, mini-humbuckers, staples, and filter'trons. Or the occasional Ric or more stock tele/strat.

I've been entertained by the idea of a PAFish bridge humbucker with a Filter'Tron neck, for a single guitar Young brothers setup.

Given interest in lots of options, maybe a P-Rails neck? [Likely stay away from series mode on it, but parallel is sort of PAFy, and it covers neck P-90 and teleish single coil duties with blade toward neck.]

Firebird middle [likely to be a special order, possibly even CS for a 4-conductor, though you might get lucky and it's a shop floor custom option with minimal upcharge], and Brian Setzer bridge model?
 
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Re: Help me design my next guitar- you guys have provided great pickup ideas in the p

One other thought, consider a 6-way superswitch, like are popular in some nashville tele's now, to permit the bridge plus neck combo.
 
Re: Help me design my next guitar- you guys have provided great pickup ideas in the p

I have seen Petty live a couple of times. Petty and Campbell switch guitars durring a show more than any musicians I have ever seen. I have watched them play everything from Tele's to Les Pauls. I don't think the tone has as much to do with the pickups as it does the amp settings and technique. Petty and Campbell sound the same with any vintage spec'ed pickup.

IMG_2399.jpg
 
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Re: Help me design my next guitar- you guys have provided great pickup ideas in the p

Their tones could best be described as vintage. When they play an LP, it sounds like an old LP. A tele sounds like an old tele, etc. Pick whatever vintage output pickup you like the EQ of and go for it. An AC30 doesn't hurt, either.
 
Re: Help me design my next guitar- you guys have provided great pickup ideas in the p

You need a half-rickenbacker / half-tele

Upper half is semi hollow rick 12 string
Lower is solid body Tele

Standard Rick pickups on the rick half
Classic tele bridge with tapped PG in the neck.

And the AC30 Dave mentioned.


Now go build it.
 
Re: Help me design my next guitar- you guys have provided great pickup ideas in the p

Thanks for lots of great input-
Keep in mind, I know I won't get a guitar that sounds like Petty since 60% of tone is in fingers:)

I just wanted you guys to have a feeling for the continuum of sounds I would like in this build. Also should have clarified that I'm only interested in 6 string sounds.

Looks like you guys have great ideas.

  • Vintage + AC30 certainly makes sense
  • 6 way is a great new idea-
  • Likely I would do toggles for splits and parallels


To sum it up thus far-
Neck- Pearly Gates vs Prails vs SD Custom Shop's Alnico Staple
Mid- Stacked SC or a Firebird
Bridge- TV Jones Brian Setzer

Surprises-
I really expected someone to tell me to put a toaster in the bridge- I know nothing about Ric pups, other than I could never get lead tones on the few I've tried- so I think I'm relieved that I don't have to learn to speak rickenbacker in my old age.

Doesn't sound like you guys think a Mini Hum or Firebird in the neck would take me the lead direction I am looking for and I would be interested in your thinking.

Last thought- I do love the pearly gates sound in the neck, but imagined it would overpower the other pups. I actually prefer an increase in vol for the neck, because I solo there the most, but I'm more concerned about the PG combinations with other pups and thinking a smaller footprint might still be the way to go-

With that in mind, does anyone know a mini-hum sized pup that is wound like a PG?

Thanks again for great background. I've seen them live many times and believe they can't be beat for songs + arrangements + guitars (Beatles are a close 2nd:)
 
Re: Help me design my next guitar- you guys have provided great pickup ideas in the p

zionstrat said:
I really expected someone to tell me to put a toaster in the bridge- I know nothing about Ric pups, other than I could never get lead tones on the few I've tried- so I think I'm relieved that I don't have to learn to speak rickenbacker in my old age.

Doesn't sound like you guys think a Mini Hum or Firebird in the neck would take me the lead direction I am looking for and I would be interested in your thinking.

Last thought- I do love the pearly gates sound in the neck, but imagined it would overpower the other pups. I actually prefer an increase in vol for the neck, because I solo there the most, but I'm more concerned about the PG combinations with other pups and thinking a smaller footprint might still be the way to go-

With that in mind, does anyone know a mini-hum sized pup that is wound like a PG?
Click to expand...

I suggested the P-Rails because it covers 3 different tones that seem relevant for what you are doing. P-90, sorta tele neck, and in parallel, bubbly PAFy neck HB. Neck P-90 with tone rolled off a bit is great for thick, unmuddy leads. I doubt the P-90 would be too thick, particularly if you are willing to tackle magnet swaps on it. A3 would drop volume a lot, and really bring out sparkle and deemphasize bass. But even without that, there's the option of going with shorter screws under the wound strings to control bass.

If the P-Rails does't fly, I'd probably go with a deluxe mini-hum. You could doubtless get the Custom Shop to make one that sounds like a Pearly Gates, for that matter. Firebird's tend to be the most single coil-like of humbucker/mini-hum/firebird options, for their series sound. Doesn't quite sound like the first choice option for thick leads.

I'd also consider a treble booster pedal, if you want more sparkle.
 
Re: Help me design my next guitar- you guys have provided great pickup ideas in the p

Despair-
Yes, the PRails is a very good candidate for all the reasons you list- Clearly this build needs to be flexible- I am a form follows function guy, but have to admit that the look of a nice shiney chrome mini may be driving some of my thinking.

Treble booster is an idea I have never considered- I usually think 'If the harmonics aren't there in the first place, there is nothing to boost'.

But I have heard a lot of chimey sounds from rigs that dont appear fundamentally bright, so I think i may be time for me to get some schooling.

Thanks again!
 
I bought a Rickenbacker higain- Help me design my next guitar-

I bought a Rickenbacker higain- Help me design my next guitar-

So the one thing that probably makes no sense is imagining that a Rickenbacker pickup is going to get me a chimey sound in a tele or a strat-

But for some reason, I grabbed one on ebay-

Looks like a relatively new one and probably too high gain for the more vintage sounds I'm looking for-

Maybe it will end up in a gretch hollow body on a totally different build-

Either way, it will be a long time before I get to do much, but I"ll give you guys a heads up when I know more-

Cheers,
Zstrat
 
Re: I bought a Rickenbacker higain- Help me design my next guitar-

Re: I bought a Rickenbacker higain- Help me design my next guitar-

A body change may not radically remove chime from a Rickenbacker pickup. Also, Rickenbacker has been doing hot bridge pickups for a long time. Only way to know for sure is to try it and see. Hotter Ric pickup may be easier to balance against other brand pickups, particularly with it as bridge and other pickups in mid/neck. Whether that's the Ric sound you are looking for... hard to say. Maybe you actually want a Ric middle pickup in the middle? Heh.

IIRC Rics are maple top, but they are semi-hollow, too. You might get beefier low end and mids out of an alder, ash or swamp ash typical fenderoid, but even basswood fendery guitars aren't always out of the classic Fender sonic ballpark. Hard to say, with all the variables changing between a Ric semi-hollowbody set-neck guitar and a fendery solidbody with bolt-on neck. Plus any scale length and wood changes...

I've heard TV Jones get very Gretschy tones out of a tele with his 'Trons, so whether the changes are good or bad are definitely a personal call.

Very curious which pickup combination you wind up with. Ric hot bridge, TV Jones Brian Setzer bridge, Ric middle, Classic Stack Plus middle, Firebird Middle, Deluxe, Firebird or P-Rails neck... I'm definitely curious how it all turns out!
 
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Re: Help me design my next guitar- you guys have provided great pickup ideas in the p

Always keep in mind that a Steel Tele Bridge plate is Microphonic , Brass or other ( even stainless - Not so much . Just know what your after , Vintage on That = Steel . for Vintage Tone , I doubt You would want Alder or Basswood <-( about the most A-tonal wood on the planet ) to My experience . Doesn't matter in most metal cause the pickup and gear is doing everything
 
Re: Help me design my next guitar- you guys have provided great pickup ideas in the p

Suhr uses a lot of basswood, I've never heard them called atonal before. Alder was very popular in guitars. I could just has easily have mentioned mahogany, which is another uncommon wood I've seen used in strats & teles. Not the usual suspect, but hardly bad.

Wood choice matters, but so do lots of other elements. Assuming reasonable construction quality, scale length usually has more of an impact on tone. Though there are exceptions. I have heard recordings of a maple neck-through body guitar that made a Custom sound incredibly bright.

I wasn't arguing for basswood, I was pointing out that without knowing the other variables, it's not really possible to predict where things will wind up.
 
Re: Help me design my next guitar- you guys have provided great pickup ideas in the p

Thanks again guys-

In my experience, scale length and wood choice are the biggest tone variables, where mass (wood and metal) tremendously impact sustain. I recently built a heavy, 25.5 mahogany L5 with a bolt on maple neck- As you would imagine, lots of sustain (LP jr ish) as well as snap and I was able to find an unusual pickup that brings out practically everything from Tele to a P90 LPJr.

For the build in this thread, pups really matter, but I don't imagine that I'll know much before I have tried a few. As mentioned above, the closest archetype for the sounds I am seeking are probably teles with TV jones or firebirds and that might get me in the ballpark- Guess we'll see when I rig something up.

Biggest challenge with this direction is routing for the Rickenbacker at the bridge- It is clear that this big hole will impact the future of any body that I start with. And it looks like a Rick pup is much closer to the bridge than a conventional tele.

Wondering if I can come up with a rout that would accommodate the Rick or a TV Jones? This build will be 25.5 and trying to imagine how that will impact the position of the bridge pups as well (Ricks are 24.75).

Does anyone know a formula to calculate the relative position of the string that a pup sees? In other words, if a pup is seeing sweet-spot harmonics at a certain position on strings with a 24.75, what would be the closest equivalent for a 25.5?

Haven't played with the dimensions yet, so things will get interesting down the road-

Thanks again for input!
 
Re: Help me design my next guitar- you guys have provided great pickup ideas in the p

zionstrat said:
Thanks again guys-
In my experience, scale length and wood choice are the biggest tone variables, where mass (wood and metal) tremendously impact sustain. I recently built a heavy, 25.5 mahogany L5 with a bolt on maple neck- As you would imagine, lots of sustain (LP jr ish) as well as snap and I was able to find an unusual pickup that brings out practically everything from Tele to a P90 LPJr.
For the build in this thread, pups really matter, but I don't imagine that I'll know much before I have tried a few. As mentioned above, the closest archetype for the sounds I am seeking are probably teles with TV jones or firebirds and that might get me in the ballpark- Guess we'll see when I rig something up. Biggest challenge with this direction is routing for the Rickenbacker at the bridge- It is clear that this big hole will impact the future of any body that I start with. And it looks like a Rick pup is much closer to the bridge than a conventional tele. Wondering if I can come up with a rout that would accommodate the Rick or a TV Jones? This build will be 25.5 and trying to imagine how that will impact the position of the bridge pups as well (Ricks are 24.75).
Does anyone know a formula to calculate the relative position of the string that a pup sees? In other words, if a pup is seeing sweet-spot harmonics at a certain position on strings with a 24.75, what would be the closest equivalent for a 25.5?
Haven't played with the dimensions yet, so things will get interesting down the road- Thanks again for input!
Click to expand...

I would summon Frank F. out for that question
 
Re: Help me design my next guitar- you guys have provided great pickup ideas in the p

zionstrat said:
Thanks again guys-

In my experience, scale length and wood choice are the biggest tone variables, where mass (wood and metal) tremendously impact sustain. I recently built a heavy, 25.5 mahogany L5 with a bolt on maple neck- As you would imagine, lots of sustain (LP jr ish) as well as snap and I was able to find an unusual pickup that brings out practically everything from Tele to a P90 LPJr.

For the build in this thread, pups really matter, but I don't imagine that I'll know much before I have tried a few. As mentioned above, the closest archetype for the sounds I am seeking are probably teles with TV jones or firebirds and that might get me in the ballpark- Guess we'll see when I rig something up.

Biggest challenge with this direction is routing for the Rickenbacker at the bridge- It is clear that this big hole will impact the future of any body that I start with. And it looks like a Rick pup is much closer to the bridge than a conventional tele.

Wondering if I can come up with a rout that would accommodate the Rick or a TV Jones? This build will be 25.5 and trying to imagine how that will impact the position of the bridge pups as well (Ricks are 24.75).

Does anyone know a formula to calculate the relative position of the string that a pup sees? In other words, if a pup is seeing sweet-spot harmonics at a certain position on strings with a 24.75, what would be the closest equivalent for a 25.5?

Haven't played with the dimensions yet, so things will get interesting down the road-

Thanks again for input!
Click to expand...

I would think it is relative to the scale length. For a neck pickup to sound 'right' (to me), the screw coil needs to be at what would be the 24th fret harmonic (impossible on most SGs, or 24-fret guitars). It is the same for a Strat pickup. This is especially true on the neck pickup. It isn't as important to my ears when talking about the bridge pickup. I had a great discussion about this with far-out luthier Ulrich Teuffel, who absolutely agreed.
 
Re: Help me design my next guitar- you guys have provided great pickup ideas in the p

Mincer said:
I would think it is relative to the scale length. For a neck pickup to sound 'right' (to me), the screw coil needs to be at what would be the 24th fret harmonic (impossible on most SGs, or 24-fret guitars). It is the same for a Strat pickup. This is especially true on the neck pickup. It isn't as important to my ears when talking about the bridge pickup. I had a great discussion about this with far-out luthier Ulrich Teuffel, who absolutely agreed.
Click to expand...

Wow, far-out is right- those are some crazy looking guitars, but they look very functional. Have you ever played one?

So, in theory the spacing for the Rick pup in the bridge isn't incredibly sensitive- Imagine I could measure the distance from the bridge to pup center on a Rick, turn that into a ratio for 24.75 and convert to 25.5.

Much appreciated.
 
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