Help me figure this out (SuperSwitch related)

[DrNewcenstein]

http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Electro...Super_Switch/Instructions/I-3200.html#details


I've got this switch (actually an older Jackson Special 5-way - same concept, slightly different layout but the same features), and I'm wiring it up with 3 Duncan Lil'/JRs (4 conductor).

I DO NOT want standard 5-way, or any variation found on the Duncan site. That's a waste of this switch's potential IMO.

What I'm doing is taking it as 4 Groups on one switch (as defined by the 4 Poles it has).

Group 1 gets the Black wires from each pickup.
Group 2 gets the Red wires from each pickup.
Group 3 gets the White wires from each pickup.
Group 4 - we'll get to that in a minute.

The Commons/Outputs for Groups 1, 2, and 3 are running to a DPDT On/On/On mini-toggle in a Series/Split/Parallel setup (just like the diagram on the site).

Now, I've wired it up and tested the Bridge only, Middle only, and Neck only positions. Everything works perfectly. I get <pickup> Series/Split/Parallel with itself when I flick the mini-toggle, just like I wanted.

Where I'm having trouble is the "2 and 4" - Bridge+Middle and Neck+Middle.


I cannot get these wired up without bleedover - the Bridge comes through on Neck+Middle, and the Neck comes through on Bridge+Middle, and I get all 3 when on Middle only.

That brings us to Group 4:

I joined Groups 1 and 4 via their Commons/Ouputs so now Group 1 has 10 terminals.

Following Duncan's diagram for 3 Lils/Super 5-way:

http://www.seymourduncan.com/suppor...ematics.php?schematic=3lil_hum_1v_1t_sper5way


I solder jumpers for the appropriate terminals as shown in the diagram:

The Bridge Black is connected to Bridge Only and jumped to Bridge+Middle on the first 5 lugs of the 10-point Group 1.
Middle Black starts on Bridge+Middle, then jumps to Middle Only, then Middle+Neck on Group 4 (thr last 5 lugs of the 10-point Group 1).
Neck is connected to the Middle+Neck and Neck Only terminals of Group 1 (first 5).

These connections must be duplicated on the Red and White Groups (2 and 3) to get Split/Series/Parallel with itself options on those positions. I've tested this and know it to be fact.

If I connect all 5 terminals in one Group, I get instant bleedover as if all wires on that Group were wired straight to the knob. The 5-way has no effect because all pickups are on all the time.

If I use 2 Groups (merge 1 and 4), and wire up the jumpers on separate halves as the Duncan diagram says, I get the same problem - all pickups on.

All I can do is switch between Series/Split/Parallel.

Thinking it might be the Reds/Whites causing the problem (since all 5 terminals for each Group are merged), I disconnected them and soldered them together as if for standard wiring (R+W together, Black to Hot, etc), and wired up one Group using the jumpers across all 5 terminals and got Bleedover (as expected).

Next, I removed the 5-point jumper and wired it according to the Duncan diagram with the jumpers on 2 separate Groups which are joined at the Commons, and still got bleedover.

How does the Duncan diagram NOT get bleedover? Is it because of the 2 Groups that are Grounded?

Surely not, as that's done merely for Splitting on the 2 and 4.

Then again, I'm all out of ideas. Anyone got a clue?

 

[DrNewcenstein]

Re: Help me figure this out (SuperSwitch related)

Pfft. Guitar players.

 

[DrNewcenstein]

Re: Help me figure this out (SuperSwitch related)

Thanks for the reply. I did some more poking around with it and unfortunately the only way I can stop the bleedover is by wiring two Groups separately as shown in the SD diagram (one group for the bridge and neck, and the other for the middle). Since the 2 and 4 have to be connected manually, doing it on one Group (5 tabs) connects all 5 tabs at once, which is the same as wiring all 3 pickups to the same terminal.

As I said, it works as long as 2 and 4 aren't connected - bridge, middle, and neck all get Series/Split/Parallel options by themselves, but not when mixed.

However, once wiring it up like SD shows (connecting Common to Common to join Groups), I didn't get sound from the Middle positions. I had to connect the "middle" Group's Common directly to the pot like the "Bridge and Neck" Group. If I bridged the two like the SD diagram, I had no "Middle + <other pickup>" sound at all.


Since the only way to stop the bleedover is to use 2 Groups per SD's diagram, that means Groupd 3 and 4 will have to be wired the same way (Bridge and Neck on Group 3, Middle on Group 4), which means I can't put Red and White on their own Groups, which furthermore means I can only get Series/Split out of the 5-way. The 3-way ON/On/On DPDT would be useless then, and I may as well use a 2-way mini-toggle to select between the Series/Split "halves" of the 5-way.


StewMac shows the SuperSwitch as being 3-4 weeks backordered, and I was hoping to order one just in case there was a physical difference between that and the one I have that would allow me to wire it up the way I want.

When I had the guitar set up for 5 different pickups in the H-S-H format, I could wire one pickup alone to each lug on the switch, but 2 of those pickups are dead (HR and Classic Stack), so I had to go with standard H-S-H, which means combining the 2 and 4 manually.

 

[MikeS]

Re: Help me figure this out (SuperSwitch related)

Perhaps you are best served explaining exactly what tones you are looking for. Is it simply standard strat positions with the ability to series/split/parallel the three mini-hums simultaneously?

It would also be helpful to see a diagram of how you've wired these switches. Sometimes it's easy to spot a single minor 'oops' in a scheme.

 

[DrNewcenstein]

Re: Help me figure this out (SuperSwitch related)

Wow. Thanks Hermetico :notworthy

You've got some connections I didn't think of. Hmmmm.
I'll have to study these and see what I can apply.


Mike - Yeah, basically, I just wanted Series/Split/Parallel, though truthfully I probably couldn't tell Series from Parallel just by listening to it.



I've previously wired it this way:

In this setup, each pickup's Black, Red, and White goes to its own tab, and there are 3 separate Groups - all Black, all Red, and all White. Group 4 was going to be standard H-S-H wiring with the 2 bridge or neck pickups running at the same time when those were selected.

The Common from each Color-Coded Group goes to the 3-way mini-toggle On/On/On to select Series/Split/Parallel.

The Output of the mini (black wire lug) runs to the volume pot of a dual-concentric volume/tone rig.

The output of the volume goes to a push/pull switch, the common of which goes to the jack. The push-pull acts as the volume for the 4th group (H-S-H) and thereby Grounds the other 3 Groups so that the appropriate connections (Ground and Hot) are made for the H-S-H setup to function.

All in theory, of course :lol:


It was going fine until the Hot Rails turned up dead, and that was the only other mini/JR hum I had.

Now I'm doing standard H-S-H (full-sized hums, not JRs) and that's where the problem starts.

As I've said, the 1, 3, and 5 positions (Bridge Only, Middle Only, Neck Only) work with the Series/Split/Parallel switching, until I try to do positions 2 and 4. Once I wire them up, I either lose the Parallel option or get all 3 pickups on all the time.


I'd already resigned myself to the idea that I was only going to be able to get Series/Split because of how the Groups would have to be combined, but I'll study Hermetico's diagrams a bit before committing either way.

 

[MikeS]

Re: Help me figure this out (SuperSwitch related)

I don't quite follow what the difference is between B1 and B2 or N1 and N2. You're showing 5 pickups?!?

I'm not convinced you couldn't do series/split parallel on all three just yet. I still need a little more clarification on what is going on. As I see it, you have 3 humbuckers (full size, sc size, or rails... doesn't matter) connected to a superswitch, which you want to give you the 5 classic strat positions. Then you have a DPDT on/on/on to select series/split/parallel modes. It's still not clear what you are trying to do with the 4th pole and that second push/pull.

 

[DrNewcenstein]

Re: Help me figure this out (SuperSwitch related)

Oops. Wrong pic. That's actually supposed to be the standard 3-pickup H-S-H diagram:

But yeah, that diagrams was for 5 pickups mounted on a H-S-H pickguard (JBJr, Hot Rails, and 3 Custom Shop Jrs I ordered - Distortion Jr, JazzJr, Custom Jr). I had it working until 2 of the pickups died. The B1/B2 and N1/N2 were Bridge 1 and 2, and Neck 1 and 2.


Anyhoo, for the 3-pickup (correct) diagram, I'm trying to get the SuperSwitch to do the same thing - Series/Split/Parallel - but with the standard Bridge+Middle and Middle+Neck options, only on one Group of 5 tabs (since I need 2 of the other Groups for the Red only and White only wiring).


However, the switch doesn't work that way. I have to put the Bridge and Neck on one Group and the Middle on another. That takes away one Group from my scheme.

In order to get the Red or White wired the same way (so I can get the same options with the Bridge+Middle and Middle+Neck), I have to wire 2 more Groups the same way as the first 2. That takes up all 4 Groups, and takes away 1 switching option - Split if I Ground the White permanently, or Parallel if I put the R+W together.

Either way, that negates the 3-way mini (I would only need a 2-way mini, and only have either Series/Parallel or Series/Split).

 

[DrNewcenstein]

Re: Help me figure this out (SuperSwitch related)

The 4th pole would be for something else - in the original 5-pickup diagram, it was going to be for
B1+B2
B1+B2+Middle
Middle
Middle+N1+N2
N1+N2

Basically H-S-H where both Bridge and both Neck pickups were on at the same time when they were enabled (or possibly split and in series with each other to make a hybrid, etc).

The Push-Pull was going to be the Volume for the 4th pole. Pull up on the switch and it shuts off the other 3 Groups, which had their own Volume, doing all the required Grounding to get the option I wanted (i.e. B1+B2 full or split+series with each other, whatever). I needed the switch, so I may as well use the Volume. There would be a Master Tone (dual concentric Vol/Tone pot on the first 3 Groups).

I'm sure I could have wired the p/p for the Tone control, but since I already had the concentric and could only use it on pickguarded guitars because of the threaded collar being short.....

 

[DrNewcenstein]

Re: Help me figure this out (SuperSwitch related)

Thanks again.

As I said, I had to give up on the 5-pickup idea since one died (just realized I said 2 died earlier, but that was partially correct - the Hot Rails in this 5-pickup setup died, and a Classic Stack in a completely different setup also died).

Anyway, now I'm using a 3-pickup H-S-H setup (which is still using a JR hum in the middle, but that's just adding to the confusion now :lol: )
so I've got a new batch of problems - namely the 2 and 4.

I've been studying your diagrams above all day to figure out what's going on with each one, and I'm pretty sure I'll wire one of them up tonight.


As for the 5-pickup layout, I thought the pickups I was trying to use were significantly different from each other. The DistortionJr sounds a bit like a Custom (more bass and low mids than highs), and the Custom sounds even darker - like a hotter Jazz. The JazzJr does sound similar to the full-sized Jazz, but different enough from the CustomJr.

I had the Hot Rails alongside the DistortionJr in the bridge and a JBJr alongside the CustomJr in the neck, with the JazzJr in the middle position.

While the HR and DD would have been relatively equal in output volume, the tonal characteristics of each are different, particularly when split.


Again, thanks for your input

 

[Mark Cearlock]

Re: Help me figure this out (SuperSwitch related)

This thread makes my head hurt. Seems more complicated than wiring up 3 p-rails with 6 p/p's. :joke:

 

[DrNewcenstein]

Re: Help me figure this out (SuperSwitch related)

Heh - if you think reading it was bad, how do you think my head feels after trying to sort this out for the past 3 weeks? :lol:

 

[MikeS]

Re: Help me figure this out (SuperSwitch related)

That reminds me of trying to figure out the wiring scheme on my HWY1 using a superswitch. Designing the thing took forever, and I'm pretty sure caused my brain to reboot a couple times, but the result was worth it.

So I'm looking at this right now... please explain what you're trying to accomplish on pole #4. It appears to be a redundant or unnecessary second master volume.

 

[MikeS]

Re: Help me figure this out (SuperSwitch related)

OK, there are a couple issues with this plan of attack. They all are related with positions 2 and 4.

1) With a DPDT switch and a superswitch you could get series bridge in parallel with series middle in position 2 (similar, position 4). What you cannot get are the parallel tones, because to do so would require more poles than are available on a superswitch. If series/split suffices, you don't even need a superswitch to split a three humbuckers in a strat pickup selecting scheme.

2) Now, by assigning the "colors" to separate poles you've created an issue in positions 2 and 4, even in the series humbucker mode. In a notch position the north coils are combined in parallel and then sent through the two south coils, rather than the signals being combined after passing through the south coils. That is bound to change the tone of the notch positions.

 

[Mark Cearlock]

Re: Help me figure this out (SuperSwitch related)

Heh - if you think reading it was bad, how do you think my head feels after trying to sort this out for the past 3 weeks? :lol:

Right-o. I do understand that!

 

[DrNewcenstein]

Re: Help me figure this out (SuperSwitch related)

OK, there are a couple issues with this plan of attack. They all are related with positions 2 and 4.

1) With a DPDT switch and a superswitch you could get series bridge in parallel with series middle in position 2 (similar, position 4). What you cannot get are the parallel tones, because to do so would require more poles than are available on a superswitch. If series/split suffices, you don't even need a superswitch to split a three humbuckers in a strat pickup selecting scheme.

2) Now, by assigning the "colors" to separate poles you've created an issue in positions 2 and 4, even in the series humbucker mode. In a notch position the north coils are combined in parallel and then sent through the two south coils, rather than the signals being combined after passing through the south coils. That is bound to change the tone of the notch positions.

...and then you lost me :lol:

j/k - Had to read it a few times but yeah, you're right - that explains why, even though I had the middle Green and Black (and therefore Red and White) swapped, I don't get any "quack" in 2.


As for Pole 4:

For the 5-pickup version, that was going to be H-S-H (or as Hermetico said, HH-H-HH), or, if it could be done, both Bridge hums split in series with each other, middle split, both neck hums split in series with each other.

If I went with all-splits, the R+W connections would be jumped individually to Pole 4 from Poles 2 and 3 (since they're already separated at those points). The 2 bridge pickups would (presumably) use each others' Red and White (B1-R + B2-W on Tab 1).

This should give me...what? Rear (bridge) coil of B1 and Front (neck) coil of B2 in Series so that both pickups form a "virtual hybrid"?

If that were the case, then I could (again, presumably) do the same for Neck 1 and 2.

And yet again, if that were the case, then I would essentially have H-S-H on Pole 4.


Again, that's all theoretical - I don't know exactly what would happen.



However, since I'm using the 3-pickup version, Pole 4 and Pole 3 will have to be connected just as 1 and 2 are connected, which means I lose the Parallel option and only get Series/Split options.

If that's going to be the case, then I can swap out the 3-way mini for a 2-way mini that only selects between Series Group (1 and 2) and Split Group (3 and 4). The 2nd Volume knob also takes a hike since I can't use it for Group 4's H-S-H layout.



Splitting 3 Poles into 3 different colors - black, red, white - and then routing their Commons to the 3-way mini-toggle does actually perform the same function as wiring each hum to a separate 3-way for Series/Split/Parallel - in this case, the 5-way is taking on the role of Terminal Strip and feeds each pickup to one 3-way, one at a time, instead of each pickup getting its own 3-way.



Ow.

 

[DrNewcenstein]

Re: Help me figure this out (SuperSwitch related)

Yeah, fitting all those extra wires for the switches is going to be a problem :lol:


Thanks! WOW! That's some mad skillz you've got with this stuff. I'm totally impressed.

:notworthy

 

[DrNewcenstein]

Re: Help me figure this out (SuperSwitch related)

<faints>

:notworthy :notworthy :notworthy :notworthy :notworthy :notworthy :notworthy :notworthy