Help me rewire my PRS H/S/H...my tech botched it! Need a wiring super genious!!!

[J Moose]

Sorry that this one is long...but it's a saga!

I've got a 2004 Swamp Ash Special that I really dig, came stock with a pair of PRS McCarty buckers and a Duncan Vintage Rail in the middle. For controls we've got two pots (one is push/pull) and a 3-way toggle. Here's the stock wiring diagram; http://prsguitars.com/csc/schematics/sas.pdf

With the push/pull down it's like a Gibson, two buckers w/ volume and tone. The push/pull in the up position activates middle pickup and renders the treble humbucker to a single coil for these options;

Position 1: Bridge bucker tapped w/ middle pickup
Position 2: Full neck humbucker and middle pickup
Position 3: Bridge bucker tapped, middle pickup and full neck humbucker

About two months ago I replaced the PRS buckers with a pair of Duncans and they were out-of-phase with the Vintage Rail but otherwise life was good!Since I'm slightly inept at dealing with LOTS of tiny wires and it needed a pro-setup anyway I brought it to my tech who I've been using for like 15 years and had him rewire the whole thing.

Now it's got a volume for each bucker and the push/pull still adds the Vintage Rail and taps the neck pickup, but the back postion is ALWAYS the full on bridge bucker.

It sorta works...

:smash:

The problem is that none of the pickups are ever really "off". I'll roll down the bridge volume and the neck pickup is STILL coming through but just barely...enough to be annoying and deal-breaking even on clean stuff. It's even worse with high gain!!! Might as well not have a volume pot at all. There's some other odd stuff going on too, like the blends between the two 'buckers seems to be either on or off rather then gradual like it is on a Paul or 335. Plus there's just overall weirdness that makes it 'not right' and I don't want to put it back to stock wiring if I can avoid it.

I took the rear cover off and he had added a cap across the neck volume and now when I roll back the volume it turns to mud, no problems in removing that...but somehow that knob is acting like a mini-HIGHLY-subtle tone control for the whole guitar. I removed a couple of redundent wires and got a little bit of top back...like the difference between new & old strings and when I brought thte whole thing back to my guy and explained it, he looked at me like I had just turned purple and sprouted wings & a tail!

:guilty: :dunno: :lame:

So without going and adding a third volume pot and putting more holes & controls on the guitar, is what I want even possible? Either;

A) H/S/H with a volume for each bucker from a 3-way switch and a mini-toggle?

B) H/S/H with regular "Paul" wiring and access to the middle pickup on it's own, plus some combo of that with the neck pickup?

I don't see how it's not, but I'm a kucklehead when it comes to rewiring guitars for crazy stuff like this. I'm wondering if part of the problem is that my tech wired the bridge pickup volume to the push/pull pot and since the Vintage Rail has to be tied to one volume pot...that might be it?

I dunno...all I know is that I want this thing to WORK! And since I got it back it's kinda been sitting in it's case because it's all wonky.

I'm probably going to bring it to somebody else in the NJ/NYC area to make it right but I want to keep the experimenting to a minimum.

Thanks much for reading this...and really...ANY ideas would be great!

 

[tone4days]

Re: Help me rewire my PRS H/S/H...my tech botched it! Need a wiring super genious!!!

can you post a pic of the schematic he used for the 'rewire'?

i am not sure how from the pic you linked to how you ever got the bridge tapped - it's white wire is taped off

are you open to a double stacked pot with concentric independent knobs?

t4d

 

[J Moose]

Re: Help me rewire my PRS H/S/H...my tech botched it! Need a wiring super genious!!!

can you post a pic of the schematic he used for the 'rewire'?

i am not sure how from the pic you linked to how you ever got the bridge tapped - it's white wire is taped off

i reread your post 3 tims and cant figure out what you really want it to do

can you say in a short description what you want?

t4d

Thanks for the quick response...yeah...I'm not sure how to best describe it.

I don't think he used a schematic for it, just moved some wires around. I'd take a picture of it and maybe that'll help...but it's a jungle in there!

If you think it'll help just say the word and I'll get the camera.

What I'd like is;

Two volume controls & the 3-way toggle (push/pull down) to act like the two volumes on a regular old Gibson LP. That way I can do all the stutter stuff.

When I pull up on the push/pull I want it to add the middle Vintage Rail and either;

A) Get the VR alone
B) Have the VR with either full or tapped neck
C) Whatever other tonal options that tag along for the ride

The BIG thing is having a volume for each 'bucker that actually shuts off and isn't mildly tied together like they are now.

If I can get the Vintage Rail on it's own too, that would be GREAT! If not and I can only get it in combo with the 'buckers...that's ok too...but I really want/need the two volumes so it operates Les Paul style.

And yeah...the white wire on the PRS pickups was taped off. They've changed that schematic a bunch of times over the years...now that same guitar has a 5-way blade.

I'd even consider a 5-way rotary switch if I had to, but I've snapped 'em off in the past so I'd like to avoid that path if I can.

 

[Artie]

Re: Help me rewire my PRS H/S/H...my tech botched it! Need a wiring super genious!!!

With the push/pull down it's like a Gibson, two buckers w/ volume and tone. The push/pull in the up position activates middle pickup and renders the treble humbucker to a single coil for these options;

Position 1: Bridge bucker tapped w/ middle pickup
Position 2: Full neck humbucker and middle pickup
Position 3: Bridge bucker tapped, middle pickup and full neck humbucker

Hey J; I just wanted to point out that what you say in that paragraph, and what you list by numbers, doesn't match. Your paragraph is correct according to the diagram, which will give you:

1. Bridge full. (The bridge is always full, when selected. It isn't tapped.)
2. Neck tapped, middle, bridge full.
3. Neck tapped with middle.

And of course, with the switch down, its as you say . . . normal LP.

I'll chew on the rest of your post, but I gotta couple ahead of you, and I'm moving slow.

Artie

 

[J Moose]

Re: Help me rewire my PRS H/S/H...my tech botched it! Need a wiring super genious!!!

Hey J; I just wanted to point out that what you say in that paragraph, and what you list by numbers, doesn't match. Your paragraph is correct according to the diagram, which will give you:

1. Bridge full. (The bridge is always full, when selected. It isn't tapped.)
2. Neck tapped, middle, bridge full.
3. Neck tapped with middle.

Tone 4 days pointed that out too...and honestly I thought it was a little funky too so here's my disclaimer;

I just copied it from somewhere on the PRS site while digging for the schematic. The only thing I changed was their wording, which was "treble single coil". I thought "bridge tapped" would be easier to follow.

Ugh. This stuff always gives me a headache...no wonder I try to let other people do it and stick to doing 'standard' wiring & drop-in replacements!

I've got my camera ready...just need to clear off the bench & put the guitar up and I'll take a few pictures of the cavity...

 

[Artie]

Re: Help me rewire my PRS H/S/H...my tech botched it! Need a wiring super genious!!!

Yeah . . . T4D is usually on top of this stuff too.

Like I said, I'll try to work you something up, but it'll just take me some time.

Artie

 

[tone4days]

Re: Help me rewire my PRS H/S/H...my tech botched it! Need a wiring super genious!!!

would you be good with a dual concentric pot? ... they are reasonable for studio work, but get tricky in live applications .. if you use one, you might be able to preserve a tone control, or add an independent volume for the VR ...

i think the push / pull could give you a 'drop the VR in any time' kinda deal ...
if you use two push/pulls you could use one to drop in the VR and the other to split the n and b

the only thing i really don't know about is how to decouple the volume knobs fort he n and b so that they are not somewhat interdependent

and are you ok with no tone pot?

t4d

 

[J Moose]

Re: Help me rewire my PRS H/S/H...my tech botched it! Need a wiring super genious!!!

Yeah, I'm way cool with no tone pot...that's kinda why I wanted the dual volume thing, I never used it on this guitar.

I've gotta say no the dual concentric pots. It's a slick idea but I'm too much of a meat-head to deal with that in a live setting! In the studio I do more producing then playing and really, I'm trying to preserve a certain "look" to thing.

Anyway, I just took a few pictures and traced the wiring out...I think I've spotted part of the problem...

I'll shall return!

That's a threat, not a promise.

 

[octavedoctor]

Re: Help me rewire my PRS H/S/H...my tech botched it! Need a wiring super genious!!!

AThe problem is that none of the pickups are ever really "off". I'll roll down the bridge volume and the neck pickup is STILL coming through but just barely...enough to be annoying and deal-breaking even on clean stuff. It's even worse with high gain!!! Might as well not have a volume pot at all. There's some other odd stuff going on too, like the blends between the two 'buckers seems to be either on or off rather then gradual like it is on a Paul or 335. Plus there's just overall weirdness that makes it 'not right' and I don't want to put it back to stock wiring if I can avoid it.

I had this problem with a Washburn *spits* N2 i rewired for my pal Simon.

I can't remember what I did to fix it...

I think that he'd fried the pots by soldering them himself and giving them too much heat, so i changed them. I also used separate wires from the volume pots to the switch to avoid high-gain crosstalk which might result from using 2-core lapped screen wire.

Make sure that all your pot casings are linked to ground and that all those solder joints are good, and make sure that the the pots are wired as straight potential dividers (wiper out, track terminals in and ground)

 

[J Moose]

Re: Help me rewire my PRS H/S/H...my tech botched it! Need a wiring super genious!!!

I don't think this guy fried the pots, he's too good for that kind of BS...I think this is just too outside of the norm for him

Anyway...here's the axe...I named her Rebecca after an amazing women I dated for a brief period before I moved to Mass and she moved to South Korea!

Here's my clunky drawing of the inside. I left out some of the "obvious" wiring like the output jack.

One thing that seems a little odd is that both while the neck & bridge buckers have green and ground tied together, both of the pickups are leading to the ground of the neck volume. The push/pull is controlling the bridge volume and I'm wondering if it should be the other way around...

The red wire with the X at the end (by the push/pull) is the one that gave me a little more treble when I removed it.

And a few shots of the inside for whatever good that does...

Thanks guys! I really truely appreciate your taking the time to help!

 

[Artie]

Re: Help me rewire my PRS H/S/H...my tech botched it! Need a wiring super genious!!!

Here's my clunky drawing of the inside. I left out some of the "obvious" wiring like the output jack.

One thing that seems a little odd is that both while the neck & bridge buckers have green and ground tied together, both of the pickups are leading to the ground of the neck volume. The push/pull is controlling the bridge volume and I'm wondering if it should be the other way around...

The red wire with the X at the end (by the push/pull) is the one that gave me a little more treble when I removed it.

That diagram looks ok to me. I'm assuming that the thick dark line in the middle, (that goes up from the middle terminal of the switch), is the 3-way ground lug, and that you aren't showing the wires that go from the 3-way to the output jack. (As you said.)

The grounds can be connected to either pot, as long as the back of the pot is grounded. He probably used the neck volume because he didn't want to solder to the push-pull switch case - which is a good idea not to do. Also, the push-pull switch itself, is electrically isolated from the bridge volume. They only share a handle, so that shouldn't be a concern either.

There's no good reason for you to lose treble with that wire attached. It just brings in the VR when the switch is pulled. There would, of course, be the normal change in sound when you have two humbuckers connected in parallel.

So, basically, everything looks good to me in that diagram. This one might be tough to fix from afar. :dunno:

Artie

 

[Artie]

Re: Help me rewire my PRS H/S/H...my tech botched it! Need a wiring super genious!!!

Here's a couple more simple observations:

1. That red wire should only have an effect if the push-pull switch is "pulled". If it has affect any other time, then that diagram isn't correct. (Or its shorted somewhere.)

2. If you have the 3-way in the middle position, and the neck volume all the way down, the treble-bleed cap goes directly across hot and ground. Make sure its not the wrong value. Like something in the uf range instead of the pf range.

Artie

 

[Erlend_G]

Re: Help me rewire my PRS H/S/H...my tech botched it! Need a wiring super genious!!!

Artie, were you born a wireologist, or have you studied at "The Wirer's College"?

 

[J Moose]

Re: Help me rewire my PRS H/S/H...my tech botched it! Need a wiring super genious!!!

That diagram looks ok to me. I'm assuming that the thick dark line in the middle, (that goes up from the middle terminal of the switch), is the 3-way ground lug, and that you aren't showing the wires that go from the 3-way to the output jack. (As you said.)

Well, actually the thick dark line was meant to represent the white lead from the Vintage Rail. There IS a braided sheild cable that goes to the output jack though and they're all kinda mashed together. There's another set of contacts on the bottom of the three way switch & I can't really tell where any of that stuff goes, I think to the top of the switch but I'm not positive. It looks like my tech didn't change any of it though.

The red wire...

With it attached and the bridge pickup volume rolled down, the neck pickup bleeds through (barely) and when I roll the neck volume down, it's acting like a mini-tone control before it goes "off". With the red wire detatched and I roll the neck volume down, it just goes down and will turn the guitar "off".

Hmmm.

My guess is a short, because it didn't/doesn't matter if the switch is tapped or untapped. Though really, I could've screwed the diagram up. And 'ya know...if I touch that bare end of the red wire to the push/pull casing it FREAKS the guitar out and cuts signal...is that ground? I'll poke that one around tonight and see what it does when attached to various points.

 

[J Moose]

Re: Help me rewire my PRS H/S/H...my tech botched it! Need a wiring super genious!!!

So, basically, everything looks good to me in that diagram. This one might be tough to fix from afar. :dunno:

I can dig it.

Though, is what I want to do even possible? Having a volume for each 'bucker and the push/pull to do the add/split thing?

 

[octavedoctor]

Re: Help me rewire my PRS H/S/H...my tech botched it! Need a wiring super genious!!!

I'm pretty sure it's possible, but I know that if it was me, I'd strip all that out and start again from scratch trying to do a neat a job with as few unnecessary wires as possible. It's not easy on a PRS they don't leave you much room to wave a soldering iron...

I'll have to sit and stare blankly at that diagram and the accompanying photos for a few hours I'm not quite as quick on the uptake as Artie.

But I've had my morning cup of tea now so at least my eyes can focus again even if my limbs take a while to get going...

 

[J Moose]

Re: Help me rewire my PRS H/S/H...my tech botched it! Need a wiring super genious!!!

I'm pretty sure it's possible, but I know that if it was me, I'd strip all that out and start again from scratch trying to do a neat a job with as few unnecessary wires as possible. It's not easy on a PRS they don't leave you much room to wave a soldering iron...

That was my idea too...gut the whole thing and start from scratch because there's probably one wire from the "stock" wiring that's screwing this whole thing up. My tech doesn't want to do that and I'd do it myself but like you said...there isn't a lot of room in there and there's A LOT of wires!

I'd probably burn through the insulation or something, I've already tagged it once or twice! Hence my desire to get a schematic together and bring it to someone new.

 

[Tru_Slice]

Re: Help me rewire my PRS H/S/H...my tech botched it! Need a wiring super genious!!!

I have a PRS Soapbar II.

My tech told me that the electronics in the SE's are crap, so he reccomended gutting and re-wiring the whole thing.

So I did.

And now it sounds like a REAL PRS.

 

[Artie]

Re: Help me rewire my PRS H/S/H...my tech botched it! Need a wiring super genious!!!

Well, actually the thick dark line was meant to represent the white lead from the Vintage Rail.

Ok. That makes sense . . . however, make sure that the point I show here with the green arrow goes to ground. And by "ground", I mean the sleeve side of the output jack.

The red wire...

With it attached and the bridge pickup volume rolled down, the neck pickup bleeds through (barely) and when I roll the neck volume down, it's acting like a mini-tone control before it goes "off". With the red wire detatched and I roll the neck volume down, it just goes down and will turn the guitar "off".

Do you mean, with the 3-way in the middle?

...if I touch that bare end of the red wire to the push/pull casing it FREAKS the guitar out and cuts signal...is that ground? I'll poke that one around tonight and see what it does when attached to various points.

There's no need to poke it around. That much is "normal". You're shorting a hot wire to ground. It will kill the output.

Artie

 

[J Moose]

Re: Help me rewire my PRS H/S/H...my tech botched it! Need a wiring super genious!!!

Originally Posted by J Moose
The red wire...

With it attached and the bridge pickup volume rolled down, the neck pickup bleeds through (barely) and when I roll the neck volume down, it's acting like a mini-tone control before it goes "off". With the red wire detatched and I roll the neck volume down, it just goes down and will turn the guitar "off".

Do you mean, with the 3-way in the middle?

NO!

Check it.

Toggle switch is back...I'm on the bridge pickup...both volumes up @ full blast. No taps, no nothing...just full on bridge 'bucker.

I'll roll the bridge to "off" but even with clean tones it's like it only goes to "1".

If I roll the neck pickup volume down, THEN the guitar is "off".

With the neck volume up, bridge pickup volume all the way down, and toggle switch at full on bridge bucker...if I yank the push/pull up so it cuts the colis...

There's a slight volume drop on the neck pickups. Push it in, and it goes back to full. In either case if I roll the neck volume down the guitar is off.

The same thing happens with the neck pickup. Roll the bridge volume back and blah blah blee blee.

With the toggle switch in the center I don't get a smooth blend between the pickups like a 335 or Paul...it seems like they're either off or on and it happens about 1/3 to maybe 1/2 way through the rotation.

I talked to another shop this afternoon and they kinda knew what I was getting at...you know how some 3-pickup Paul's get "weird" with the middle pickup? It's that sort of deal. They seemed to think that maybe it's a
pot or switch value thing but seemed a little scared to go into it.

BTW, the output jack wiring is Fonzie. By Fonzie, I mean it's cool...it's good! :fing2: