help needed re: choosing the correct type of switches to use

[Ro_S]

I'm new to swapping pick-ups and re-wiring. I'm modding one of my guitars with new pick-ups; and it be completely re-wired and have various new switches. I know what I want the switches to achieve. But I badly need advice in order to choose the correct type of switch to use for each of the purpose.

Please identify exactly what kind of toggle switch I need for each of the four purposes listed below:
(e.g. SPDT, DPDT; on/off/on, on/on/on, etc.)

#1. I'm having S/Duncan 'JB' humbucker pickup in the bridge position (call it say pickup 'A') I want to select between the following three different modes for pick-up 'A':
- full humbucker wired in series (normal mode);
- coil split (mode 2);
- both coils but wired in parallel (mode 3).

#2. I'll have two different types of single coil pick-ups situated in the neck position (call them say pickups C & D), adjacent to one another. I want to have following three options for them:
- pick-up 'C' on its own;
- pick-up 'D' on its own;
- both C & D together as a faux humbucker (wired in series).

Note: the bridge and neck pick-up positions will be selected via a 4-way blade style selector switch (like on a modified Telecaster switching arrangement), i.e. bridge only; both (series); both (parallel); and neck only.

#3. I'll have a single coil pick-up in the middle position (call it say pick-up 'B'). I want to have the following three switching options:
- pick-up 'B' only (call it 'red' circuit);
- circuit comprising pick-up A, C & D only (call it 'blue' circuit);
- both circuit 'red' and circuit 'blue' together (wired in series).

#4. My guitar will also have some piezo discs affixed to the body in the routing cavity. The piezo circuit will have its own passive tone and volume pots. The piezos and the magnetic pick-ups will all link up to a single, universal output jack. I want to wire the piezo circuit and the magnetic pickups' circuit so that I can have the following three switching options:
- piezos only (call it 'yellow' circuit)
- magnetic circuit [comprising circuits 'red' and 'blue'] (call it 'green' circuit)
- both circuit 'yellow' and circuit 'green' together (wired in series, or parallel?).

Does #1 need a DTDP on/on/on? Will a on/off/on do the same thing?

Does #2 need the same as #1?

What is the standard Gibson style 3-way pick-up selector switch? A on/on/on DTDP? Is that exactly what I've described, and need, in #3 and #4 above?

Many thanks!

 

[Artie]

Re: help needed re: choosing the correct type of switches to use

I'm just seeing this, this morning before I go to work, so let me do #1 and #2 for the moment.

#1: DPDT on-on-on
#2: DPDT on-off-on

I'll cover the other two tonight. (If no one else beats me to it.)

Artie

 

[Stratman]

Re: help needed re: choosing the correct type of switches to use

Might be a possibility using this switch, with DPDT on-on-on switches...

 

[GuitarDoc]

Re: help needed re: choosing the correct type of switches to use

#1 = DPDT on/on/on
#2 = DPDT on/off/on
#3 = Need further clarification for your #3 blue circuit. Is pup "A" (JB) in series, and in parallel with pups C and D?

But wait a minute...

Before I even ask any more questions for further clarification, I have one BIG question...you say "I'm new to swapping pick-ups and re-wiring", and yet you think you want to undertake a wiring problem that is WAY more advanced and complicated than most wiring experts would actually tackle?!!

Why?

And, do you even really have the slightest expectation of succeeding with this wiring?!

 

[HALENisking]

Re: help needed re: choosing the correct type of switches to use

It's not like this is impossible if you make this a full out project, but a couple things to think about:

-Are you actually this much of a tweaker on your guitar? Too many options can be a very big turn off in a guitar(I know, I've done something similar before. I personally never liked tones in the end, felt like a ton of only semi-useful switching with no stunning results).Make sure you know that you want this. Have you been playing long enough to know which sounds you feel like you need by habit?
-If you're certain this is want you need, make sure you only use high end electronics. Narrow down troubleshooting as much as possible.
-Is your control cavity big enough? There is literally NOTHING worse than trying ambitious wiring in a confined space; if so you WILL want to kill yourself. Consider taking the time to properly plan out doing the soldering outside of the control area.
-You don't really want a "faux humbucker" option with your single coils. You think you do, but you don't.

 

[Ro_S]

Re: help needed re: choosing the correct type of switches to use

@GuitarDoc

#3 = Need further clarification for your #3 blue circuit. Is pup "A" (JB) in series, and in parallel with pups C and D?

The four position blade switch I have to select the neck (C&D) and bridge (A) pickups will allow me to be select both parallel and series in the middle positions, positions 2 and 4 respectively (the same as with 4 position Tele mod switching arrangement).

But wait a minute...

Before I even ask any more questions for further clarification, I have one BIG question...you say "I'm new to swapping pick-ups and re-wiring", and yet you think you want to undertake a wiring problem that is WAY more advanced and complicated than most wiring experts would actually tackle?!!

Why?

And, do you even really have the slightest expectation of succeeding with this wiring?!

Yes, I do expect to succeed. I do understand and appreciate your concern, but I don't think what I have planned is as difficult as it might appear. I have seen wiring diagrams and if I mentally break down the different circuit sections of what I have planned, I believe I can rely to compiling appropriate existing wiring diagrams to achieve what I need.

 

[Ro_S]

Re: help needed re: choosing the correct type of switches to use

@ HALENisking -

It's not like this is impossible if you make this a full out project, but a couple things to think about:
-Are you actually this much of a tweaker on your guitar? Too many options can be a very big turn off in a guitar(I know, I've done something similar before. I personally never liked tones in the end, felt like a ton of only semi-useful switching with no stunning results).Make sure you know that you want this. Have you been playing long enough to know which sounds you feel like you need by habit?
-If you're certain this is want you need, make sure you only use high end electronics. Narrow down troubleshooting as much as possible.
-Is your control cavity big enough? There is literally NOTHING worse than trying ambitious wiring in a confined space; if so you WILL want to kill yourself. Consider taking the time to properly plan out doing the soldering outside of the control area.
-You don't really want a "faux humbucker" option with your single coils. You think you do, but you don't.

To answer your questions and respond to your points...

Yes, I am confident I know what I want. I have played for over 20 years. I believe the pickups I have chosen will work well together. (a JB in the bridge; a Tele neck single coil pickup; and two Danelectro style lipstick single coils in middle and neck.) I want this guitar to be a very versatile one.

I'm using Alpha pots; an Oak Grigsby blade selector switch; and 60/40 lead solder.

I have a very large, 'swimming pool' existing body cavity. It it highly suitable for mods.

Why do advise against two single coils being wired back-to-back as a ''faux humbucker''? The only have moderate/low outputs: 6.5k and 4k. Wired in series that's 10.5k; in comparison, the bridge JB is 16k. If I'm gonna use a two-way switch to select either of the neck single coils, I figured I might as well make it a three-way switch and add the faux humbucker mode too?

 

[HALENisking]

Re: help needed re: choosing the correct type of switches to use

Forgive my non detailed accusation of the dual single coil thing, but I feel that strongly about it. Two SCs side by side like that not specifically designed for it just sound tubby, thick, and muddy, without any top end. Like a ridiculously hot Tele neck without any highs. I guess if you've tried it before and liked it then go for it. But IME it's no good.

Also didn't mean to sound condescending, just wanted to put some assertive points in here, especially since you'll be new to modding.

 

[HALENisking]

Re: help needed re: choosing the correct type of switches to use

Also I think GuitarDoc was needlessly hasty with that whole "most experts wouldn't tackle' thing. If you want to, go for it and have fun. Just prepare to be possibly very frustrated XD

 

[Ro_S]

Re: help needed re: choosing the correct type of switches to use

I know it will be a challenging project, but I can be extremely persistent and am I willing to do the research legwork and be properly prepared.

I appreciate all views and advice I receive. No problem.

"Forgive my non detailed accusation of the dual single coil thing, but I feel that strongly about it. Two SCs side by side like that not specifically designed for it just sound tubby, thick, and muddy, without any top end"
- isn't that what a humbucker is? ;p

 

[HALENisking]

help needed re: choosing the correct type of switches to use

No, two separated single coils do not equal a humbucker. A humbucker is a cohesive design where each coil is wound to compliment each other, often with different amounts of winding. Completely different magnets are used in HBs, bar magnets as opposed to singular pole pieces. This is the big difference. Also generally different types of wire. One coil of an HB usually uses fillister screws. These things come together to make it what it is. This is why pos. 2 and 4 on a strat don't sound anything like an HB. The fact that they sit under diff areas of the strings makes the tone more pleasant too., less muddy like two SCs beside each other would be.


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[Ro_S]

Re: help needed re: choosing the correct type of switches to use

@Halenisking -

To clarify, when I said, "Isn't that what a humbucker is? ;p", I was making a cheeky allusion to when you wrote that two singles wired together "sound tubby, thick, and muddy, without any top end". To me, that's what a neck humbucker with any dirt sounds like. ;p

On a serious note... Re: your comparison with a Strat configuration - Yeah, but those pickups aren't next to each other, plus they're wired in parallel, not series like a humbucker is. Also, not all single coils have pole pieces (the ones I'm using don't, for example).

 

[HALENisking]

help needed re: choosing the correct type of switches to use

Ok. Good luck man

Yeah I forgot to mention parallel wiring too


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[GuitarDoc]

Re: help needed re: choosing the correct type of switches to use

So when you get the project finished so that it's working correctly, and after playing it for a month, write back and let us know how it turned out and how you are liking it. Also let us know how many settings you are actually using, and how many you just totally can't get along with.

I'm sure there are a few of us that are interested in the final results.

 

[DrNewcenstein]

Re: help needed re: choosing the correct type of switches to use

What doesn't work for one may work for another. It all depends on application and personal taste.

To answer a couple of the other questions:

1. The Gibson 3-way is typically set up for 1, 1+2, 2 - the center position is an automatic bridge between both outer positions.
The operation of this switch can be adjusted somewhat, depending on how the switch is constructed, but most people would go for mini-toggles for advanced switching options, just because they're smaller and it's easier to group several of them together, particularly inside the cavity.

2. The piezo discs + magnetics is something I've dealt with before myself, and unless the piezos are passing through a preamp, you're not going to hear them as well as the magnetics. Individually they may sound fine, but once they're combined, the magnetics drown them out easily.

For Option 3 (middle pickup), you would probably want an On-On-On DPDT - one position will be Middle only, one will be Neck+Bridge only, and one will be all 3. This switch would have to send its chosen option to the main switch.

You may want to consider a 5-way SuperSwitch for this, because I foresee a hand-full of mini-toggles (classic B.C. Rich Mission Control) or/and push-pulls on every pot.

 

[Ro_S]

Re: help needed re: choosing the correct type of switches to use

So when you get the project finished so that it's working correctly, and after playing it for a month, write back and let us know how it turned out and how you are liking it. Also let us know how many settings you are actually using, and how many you just totally can't get along with.

I'm sure there are a few of us that are interested in the final results.

I'm very happy about my pick-up choices; I gave that a lot of thought. This is admittedly somewhat of a experimental guitar with all the bells and whistles, so if some of the switching settings don't get much use, that's fine.

 

[Ro_S]

Re: help needed re: choosing the correct type of switches to use

What doesn't work for one may work for another. It all depends on application and personal taste.

To answer a couple of the other questions:

1. The Gibson 3-way is typically set up for 1, 1+2, 2 - the center position is an automatic bridge between both outer positions.
The operation of this switch can be adjusted somewhat, depending on how the switch is constructed, but most people would go for mini-toggles for advanced switching options, just because they're smaller and it's easier to group several of them together, particularly inside the cavity.

2. The piezo discs + magnetics is something I've dealt with before myself, and unless the piezos are passing through a preamp, you're not going to hear them as well as the magnetics. Individually they may sound fine, but once they're combined, the magnetics drown them out easily.

For Option 3 (middle pickup), you would probably want an On-On-On DPDT - This switch would have to send its chosen option to the main switch.

You may want to consider a 5-way SuperSwitch for this, because I foresee a hand-full of mini-toggles (classic B.C. Rich Mission Control) or/and push-pulls on every pot.

Thanks for your input, very useful.

Re: the option #3 (one position, Middle only; another position, Neck+Bridge only; and another position being all 3) - how is a Gibson style 3-way switch different to a DPDT on/on/on toggle switch for this application? will either do exactly the same job for me? I would prefer a larger sized switch.

Re: option #4 - do I need the identical type of switch as for option #3?

Re: piezo discs. Interesting. I've been wary of that issue. The piezos and the magnetic pickup circuits will both have their own volume pots. I'm hoping that will help balance the relative volume outputs when both are activated together. No? The piezo circuit will be so cheap to make and install I figured it would be a fun thing to have as bonus for experimenting with.

Re: 5-way SuperSwitch - I get the impression the wiring required for that would be way too ambitious for me?

I'm not gonna use any push/pull pots; I don't like them. I much prefer toggle switches. I calculate a total of 4 total switches being necessary for my project. I'm using a Jazzmaster type body with loads of existing routing, so I think it will accommodate everything fine. Also, I like lots of switches, like on 1960s oddball guitars.

 

[DrNewcenstein]

Re: help needed re: choosing the correct type of switches to use

Theoretically, there's no difference in the basic operation of a Gibson-style 3-way and a DPDT On/On/On. Both can perform the same function of 1, 1+2, 2.

Re the piezos: you'll have to back the volume of the magnetics way down to get them balanced with the output of the piezos. Nearly off. Unless you use a preamp for the piezos. I've got an LR Baggs T-bridge on one guitar that also has magnetics, and without the preamp board (which I've baked and need to replace one day) the volume difference is substantial.

The SuperSwitch is a bit daunting at first, but once you look at it as being 4 5-way switches in one frame, it becomes less so. You can wire up each Group as 4 different switches, and choose between them with other switches (2-way On/On), or you can set up one pickup per group, so you have series, parallel, inner coil, outer coil, and phased with itself just on one 4-conductor pickup.

Using a 3-way On/On/On switch between two Groups, you can combine functions, so if both the neck and bridge were 4-conductor humbuckers, and both set to the above options using Groups 1 and 2, that could yield interesting results. Using yet another switch to cross Groups 1 and 3, where 3 controls basic Strat-style options, then the Bridge goes through all its various stages while the middle and neck are active. However, this means the bridge is always active until you isolate a different group.

 

[Ro_S]

Re: help needed re: choosing the correct type of switches to use

Theoretically, there's no difference in the basic operation of a Gibson-style 3-way and a DPDT On/On/On. Both can perform the same function of 1, 1+2, 2..

Thanks,

Re the piezos: you'll have to back the volume of the magnetics way down to get them balanced with the output of the piezos. Nearly off. Unless you use a preamp for the piezos. I've got an LR Baggs T-bridge on one guitar that also has magnetics, and without the preamp board (which I've baked and need to replace one day) the volume difference is substantial.
.

I need at least a 2-way switch to select between magnetic and piezo, as they will share the same jack output, so I figured I might as well make it a 3-way switch instead and include a both position.

 

[Ro_S]

Re: help needed re: choosing the correct type of switches to use

I've made a slight amendment to my wiring plans and put the neck lipstick pickup in a 'group' with the other lipstick pickup.

I've created the image below to visually show, conceptually, my intended wiring.(No, this isn't purporting to be a wiring diagram.)

Does it all look okay? Will it work fine? Have I used the correct type of switches?

I'd appreciated it if it could be given a look over.