Help with Jimmy Page wiring

C

citizen

New member
Hi Folks

Sorry for yet another post on JP wiring but I need help!!

Can anyone advise if the SD wiring diagram at

http://www.seymourduncan.com/support/wiring-diagrams/schematics.php?schematic=jp_style

is flawed in any way? I copied the diagram exactly and installed it into my Edwards LP with SD 4 conductor pups. I was expecting noise problems as the pot cases didn't seem to be grounded on this diagram. I got the expected buzzing so I connected wires to ground each pot case - noise problem solved. All the tone variations are working fine, and I love them.... but only when volume pots are up full. As soon as I lower either volume, even just a fraction, the sound becomes muffled, losing all treble. I have tried a bleed (resistor & capacitor in parallel) circuit across the volume pot lugs which aren't grounded - this has not worked. Should a bleed circuit be necessary with this schematic?

Have any of you experienced a similar problem? I have double checked all wiring and it's fine. Is this a fault with the circuit? Do you need the 3 way switch with 4 connections to get this right? The above schematic does not use a 4 connector switch - I'm determined to get this working !!!

If the SD diagram is wrong, could someone point me to a schematic (or preferably diagram) which is known to work without the drastic treble loss on lowering the guitar volume.....

Any help much appreciated

Thanks

Kieran
 
Re: Help with Jimmy Page wiring

I can confirm that that diagram does have the error that you already found - only the bridge tone pot is grounded. All of those pot casings should be shorted together in order for that wiring to work correctly.

Other than that, I'm not exactly sure why you'ld get the symptom that you're getting. I'll have to think on that one a bit. In the meantime, double-check all of those grounds. Bad grounds can cause some mind-boggling symptoms.
 
Re: Help with Jimmy Page wiring

Thanks guys for the suggestions

Artie - Am I right in thinking that the main ground points are the bridge and jack socket? If so I've checked and there is continuity from all pots to these connections - any other checks I should make? As you can guess I'm sort of new to this - I can understand the regular Gibson and 50's wiring but these push pull pots have me scratching my head a lot.

I've just spent the best part of 5 hrs on the first diagram I described. Rather than ripping this out completely and using the schematic provided by Robert s (thanks btw) is there any 'tweaks' I could use on the first diagram? The main difference I can see is the 3 way switch - I would have to get a new switch with four connections - from elsewhere on the forum I gathered that this should only affect the 'in series' tone, so shouldn't be directly responsible for the loss of treble on lowering the volume pots but maybe you guys could advise me otherwise...

Really want to get this done as I currently have a lend of a mates handbuilt point to point wired Trainwreck clone - the tones coming out of this amp are unbelievable, but the treble loss is really noticeable from the guitar. The guitar is a Jimmy Page relic by Edwards which is finished great in all aspects, until I had a look at the wiring which wasn't the best. In fact once I decided to go for the Page circuit, I tried removing a volume knob and the shaft came cean out of the pot!

Thanks again for any further help you can give & greetings from a very wet & windy Ireland....
 
Re: Help with Jimmy Page wiring

Are the push pull pots that you are using A500k (audio taper) or B500k (linear taper) pots?

Linear taper pots drop off quicker in value than audio taper pots which may darken your guitars tone quicker when rolling down the pots. If you are using .001mf caps (or something near that range) as a treble pass cap on your volume pots and you still have issues losing treble you may have other issues.

The push pull pots in the JP wiring should not effect your tone when all the switches are not engaged. The only thing I can think of is that you have a solder joint or joints that are cold and they are adding resistance to the circuit and that might cause the circit to load, passing more top end to ground but that is a long shot.

What pot and cap values are you using?
 
Re: Help with Jimmy Page wiring

Hi Robert S

I bought the pots on ebay as part of a kit at http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI....m=140251085826&ssPageName=STRK:MEWN:IT&ih=004

I checked the pots when I got them and they're made by Alpha - 500K. I assumed they were audio taper but can't be sure. The caps for tone circuit are Sprague Orange Drop 0.022. The bleed circuit I tried over the volume knobs was a 560pf cap + 140kOhm resistor in parallel (which I read about at http://www.blueskillet.com/Jimmy_Page_Wiring.htm although this guy was using a different circuit also). If you could recommend a different value cap to use I'd love to hear it.... Also could you recommend a good 4 connection 3 way switch - I've heard Switchcraft are pretty good?

I'm sort of resigning myself to changing to the Seymour circuit you posted above - I wish SD would get their act together and remove the JP circuit they are currently posting. I remember thinking to myself I've got SD pickups so the SD website would be the best circuit to try.... wrong again!

Thanks for your help - maybe I'll check my solder joints first because I really like the tonal variations this circuit gave my guitar.

Keep rockin....
 
Re: Help with Jimmy Page wiring

Hi citizen!

Back in the days before this place was full of smart dudes like Artie I started looking for ways to make my Les Pauls more versatile. I started with long shaft push pull pots for splits, messed with the spin-a-splits and found a schematic on the SD site for a 4 push pull wiring that had the volume pots as splits and the tone pots as parallel wiring for the humbuckers.

Production Gibson LPs have that funky steel plate so I figured our how to recut the control pockets in Les Pauls to take the short shaft push pulls. Nothing gets your juices flowing like setting a LP on a drill press!

Later I found the JP wiring on Gibsons site and I have been installing it into Les Pauls ever since. Now that we have diagrams instead of the Gibby schematic many more people seem to want to try installing the JP wiring into their guitars but it does create some problems.

First off, there is the cavity problem in Gibson LPs. There are now long shaft pots with dpdt switches but I am not positive that they actually fit inside the cavities, never tried it. It is much easier to install into SGs or import guitars which all use short shaft pots. The thing is though that most import guitars also use 3 way switches with a single output tab for both sides of the switch. I am sure that part of the reason for the SD "JP STYLE" schematic is to accomodate people with those types of guitars/switches. As you found, it does work from a switching standpoint so all is good there but I am not sure that it works exactly the same as the Gibby schematic and I am fussy on the finer points of some things.

Guitarelectronics.com used to have several variations of the JP wiring and they were all based on the idea that if you made the wiring easier people would be able to install it with fewer hassles but not all of those schematics worked properly and some did not work at all. Once again I am fussy so I have always tried to steer people away from those diagrams in favor of the Gibson wiring which is harder to wire but always works as advertised.

I still thiink your tone loss is related to something other than the switching but I still support your decision to change to the gibson wiring.

Switchcraft is what Gibson uses in their guitars and I would suggest that you go that route. Just check your particular guitar and make sure you order the proper switch for your guitar. Gibsons use a long body 3 way, some imports use a short body switch and others use a right angle switch. All should be available with seperate in and out terminals.

I have seem the cap and resistor in parallel thing on many websites but most guitars from the factory with treble pass caps on the volume pots only use the cap. I have never seen a resistor used in PRS or Ibanez guitars with treble pass caps installed. You might want to lose the resistor and use a larger value cap if you are not getting the results you are looking for.

Other than a rewire on the 3 way switch you will also notice a difference in the way the neck tone push pull is wired. I believe that is the only difference between Gibsons wiring and the SD schematic you used so you shouldn't have to rewire the entire guitar, just that section but I advise that you look over both diagrams just to be sure.

If you have any problems after your work is done feel free to PM me. I have debugged several JP wiring jobs for members over the years and I have gotten pretty good at diagnosing problems in the JP wiring via PMs.

Good luck Bro, it's a nice wiring once you get it in there correctly!
 
Re: Help with Jimmy Page wiring

Robert; You've just about convinced me to try the JP wiring myself. I've had an LP "project" sitting in the closet for a couple years. (DeArmond LP) Maybe I should dust that thing off.

What pups do you find do the JP wiring the most justice?
 
Re: Help with Jimmy Page wiring

Depends on what you like from a guitar.

I used a 59 set for awhile. Very nice and close to JPs tone.

I had a JP set in my R9 and they got all over JPs tone.

I had a Distortion set in another JP wired LP. Not nessessarily JPs tone but it was a mean machine and the split tones were very nice with the extra output from the DDs.

For an all around versatile LP with great tone and enough torque in the bridge to get most any job done I suggest the C5/PGn combo. That is what is in my #1 and of the 14 or so guitars I have had in the last several years its the only pickup set that has not been removed since I stuck it in there back in 2001.

With the access that I have to SD pickups, that says a lot.
 
Re: Help with Jimmy Page wiring

Hi Robert S

I got hold of two Sprague orange drop .001mf caps and used them as the treble bleed on each volume pot - problem solved !

Thanks again man - I can get back to playin instead of solderin!!!

Cheers from one happy leprechaun
 
Re: Help with Jimmy Page wiring

Robert S. said:
I always use this schematic.
Click to expand...
https://forum.seymourduncan.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=10934&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1218883428

Hi Guys

I've already PM'ed RobertS for assistance with this diagram but I still can't get it to work despite checking and re-checking every connection. I have got the neck pickup working but not the bridge.

Would it be difficult to explain how to trace the signal on these diagrams? I know that black is hot so if I start from the pickup black wire and try to trace the signal I might be able to find the problem? I understand how the DPDT switches work but get confused when the signal branches off in two places. Am I thinking about this correctly?

So close to going back to good old 50's wiring but I had the Page wiring working before but I changed my 3 way switch to one with separate output tabs and wanted to upgrade the wiring .... wish I hadn't bothered now...

HELP!

Thanks

Kieran
 
Re: Help with Jimmy Page wiring

For the Bridge pickup, the pickup's Black wire goes to the Tone switch first, then another Black wire from the Tone switch goes to the Volume pot and its switch.



For the neck, the Black pickup wire goes first to the Volume pot, then through the capacitor to the Tone pot.

The rest should be easy to figure out.
 
Re: Help with Jimmy Page wiring

If the one Robert posted is taken from the Gibson diagram, it's the one I used as well. First, you are using a real Gibson 3-way with 4 lugs? Second, did you wire it up in the guitar or outside the guitar? There are SO many solder connections I mocked it up on a piece of cardboard so all I had to solder was the pickups and jack.

Are all the functions correct now, or are some positions dead?
 
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