How low can an attenuator go before ruining tone?

[Gr8Scott]

I know that an attenuator can't take a 100w amp and drive it's volume levels down to conversation level sound and still sound good. How far can you go with an attenuator (either mass or hotplate) with a 50 watt non-MV amp and still have excellent tone? Can it get down to 15 watt amp levels and still sound righteous?

 

[jeremy]

Re: How low can an attenuator go before ruining tone?

15w and a (5w) champ are not the same as far as im concerned. i think any more than a 50% reduction in volume will cause some substantial tonal loss.

 

[Gr8Scott]

Re: How low can an attenuator go before ruining tone?

15w and a (5w) champ are not the same as far as im concerned. i think any more than a 50% reduction in volume will cause some substantial tonal loss.

Sorry. Couldn't remember what the champ's wattage was. I thought it ran off two 6v6 tubes in the power section and therefore assumed it was a 15 watt amp. Thanks for the gentle/polite correction.

So an attenuator will drop volume roughly 50% before getting ugly. Can changes in the amp's tone settings still get you where you want to go at a 50% reduction?

 

[idsnowdog]

Re: How low can an attenuator go before ruining tone?

A friend has a THD Hotplate and I don't think it sounds any good past -8db attenuation. It produces a real hard clipping at the higher settings and the amp loses dynamics. Also with an attenuator your not really cutting the volume in half. I think a good distortion pedal is more useful.

 

[Rich_T]

Re: How low can an attenuator go before ruining tone?

Its as much the loss of tone from pushing the speakers hard that is a problem. If the speakers aren't being pushed, its going to shound much less full.

 

[B2D]

Re: How low can an attenuator go before ruining tone?

I have a Dr.Z/Trainwreck Airbrake, and it has four different levels of attenuation (each takes the volume down by 1.8 dB) and then a bedroom level knob that takes it literally down to practice amp levels. The tone isn't noticeably affected in levels 1-4 but on bedroom level it becomes somewhat compressed, but it doesn't sound bad.

The important thing to remember about attenuators is that they are not really supposed to turn loud, high-wattage gigging rigs into practice amps. They're for making stage volume manageable to the point where you can still get your cranked tone, but reduce your volume just enough so the soundman and the bartender won't yell at you. That's what they are most effective at.

 

[Gr8Scott]

Re: How low can an attenuator go before ruining tone?

Thanks fellas. I don't expect one to reduce a large gigging amp to bedroom levels, but I was hoping that I could use it to reduce the levels enough to practice without having to use hearing protection.

 

[Reckless Abandon]

Re: How low can an attenuator go before ruining tone?

I was not happy cranking my amp using one. My jcm 800 Sounded like my solid state crate when using one.

 

[Scott_F]

Re: How low can an attenuator go before ruining tone?

This is why you need two amps, a 50 w one and a 15 w one!

 

[the guy who invented fire]

Re: How low can an attenuator go before ruining tone?

How well an attenuator works is VERY dependent on the amp and the attenuator.

 

[Brewtone]

Re: How low can an attenuator go before ruining tone?

I use a THD hotplate and the -4&8db settings are pretty spot on. The onboard deep and bright switches are pretty useful in the -12db setting to get some of your punch and sting back. The -16db setting is pretty useless for anything other than low volume noodling.

 

[Gr8Scott]

Re: How low can an attenuator go before ruining tone?

I'm just seeing if it's worth buying an attenuator so I can jam on the Edana without going deaf and without jamming little spongy things in my ears. Can't regularly use her for practice any other way because she's so powerful.

 

[jeremy]

Re: How low can an attenuator go before ruining tone?

This is why you need two amps, a 50 w one and a 15 w one!

or four
8w, 12w, 15w, 22w, 30w

 

[drpietrzak]

Re: How low can an attenuator go before ruining tone?

What do you mean by ruin the tone? If you mean impact the tone at all, then as soon as you plug them into the circut they start to ruin it. It is a subjective thing as far as how far you can bring them down before the tone is no longer satisfactory to you. When I do this I think of it as an option relative to a pedal, rack unit into a cab emulaor and modeling amp. None of the options are the same as the amp cranked. Which is most satisfactory given the need to compromose in some way. Some times it is the attenuator, sometimes it is the pedal, somethings it is the moddler.

If you have a line out on your attenuator you shoud be able to shape the tone to a cab emulator to run into a board or PA at lower levels. This is not uncommonly a decent compromise.

 

[drpietrzak]

Re: How low can an attenuator go before ruining tone?

BTW, I find I can run an attenuator on my 1x12 single 6v6 valco, or the Epi Jr head and bring it down to a pretty manageable level without runinig the tone. But, as with all of htis it is your ears you have to satisfy not mine. So you will need to see if it does it for you. It is like selecting a pedal for someone. Or telling someone how to set the tone contols on their amp. I have a couple pedals I love, that others do not. There are several rabidly followed pedals here I have just not liked at all. It is so personal this is a hard one to answer.

 

[Truant]

Re: How low can an attenuator go before ruining tone?

or four
8w, 12w, 15w, 22w, 30w

lol or 5?

 

[tone?]

Re: How low can an attenuator go before ruining tone?

I wanted a setup like that as well. An amp and a atttenuator to tame it.

i finally bought a high end VHT 50 watt and i play it at bedroom levels and it kicks bootie. I remember Joneser saying that newer ams like those have real complex preamps and do well on low volumes as well.

On other amps it just sucks playing that low. Some SS ones sound good at low volumes. get one of those is my advice.
Those vox ones are pretty darn cool.
Just cause its SS doesnt mean you should stay away from it.

 

[jeremy]

Re: How low can an attenuator go before ruining tone?

doh!

 

[Gr8Scott]

Re: How low can an attenuator go before ruining tone?

I checked out the vox valvetronix amps tonight while waiting for a review board meeting after dinner tonight. The BBQ grill ones were capable of decent sounds if tweaked right and the 100w 2x12 version seemed nicer than the rest for some reason. All but the 100w version seemed to be a tad flat for some reason, which is probably the speakers I guess. I remembered the video demo of these amps and turned off the noise gate (those things irritate me to no end) on the 100w amp when I started playing it. I tried turning it off on the 50w 1x12, but it didn't seem to work entirely. Still had cutting out of lower volume playing etc.

Here's the really funny part. I tried to demo the 30w and 50w versions they had on the floor as I really wanted a small practice amp. The guy plugged the 30 watt in and it started making a loud medium pitch (not 60 cycle) hum kinda like low pitch feedback with the master volume all the way down. Changing the master volume didn't seem to effect it at all and the amp was completely useless. The 30 watt amp was next. Plugged it in and it started humming also with the master vol all the way down. Same pitch as the 50w amp's hum. Then the hum seemed to stop and the amp started smoking. No output from that amp... Seems like the QC on these amps is terrible.

Also - These amps seem to really not like strats with single coils all that much. They sounded much better with a hb equipped ibanez hanging nearby on the wall of guitars. Strats (including a 50's era repro strat) all sounded terrible through these amps.

The Blue grillcloth Valvetronix 2x12 with neodog speakers sitting next to the other valvetronix amps was batting it's eyelashes at me, so I had to play through it. Now that thing sounded really darned good. A couple of the models it has are useless like the british modern model, which seemed terminally muddy to me.

British 70's model seems to be an attempt to mimic my JTM-45/Edana, but it falls a bit short. It still sounds quite good mind you, but it can't touch the dust atop the cherry enclosure of my Edana. It sounds good and mimics the bass response pretty well, but lacks the sweet midrange punch it has when cranked and the highs are flat by comparison. Still very nice though.

British 80's sounds like a JCM 800 but seems to lack the neck pickup articulation that JCM 800's retain when playing on the neck pickup of any guitar. Sounds good on the bridge pickup and is a reasonably good facsimile.

Vox AC30 - Seems interesting for sure. Would need more time to experiment.

Fender models - Pretty darned good models there. I'm impressed by their tone and feel. They really respond well and have that fender sound I love.

US Highgain - I think it has possibilities, but it only seemed to sound good on the bridge like the JCM-800 model. Passable, but I don't know for sure.

Dumble model - Really nice if you turn the gain up and drop the mids slightly. Very sweet sounding amp model.


Overall - The amp had great feel and tone at low volume levels and I'm sure it gets better when you crank it. Presence knob works well and seems to change the harmonic structure of the amp models quite a bit when you use it. Nice nice touch right there. Models behaved like the real deal and needed tone and gain adjustments to make them sound their best at times. I had to dial the gain back on the recto model to unmuddle the distortion for instance or dialing the bass back on the UK 70's model just like my Edana. I was really impressed with the overall quality of the models and the great tubey feel the amp exhibited throughout. It isn't a perfect representation of a tube amp, but the simulation is close indeed. Close enough to fool an uninformed audience or player for certain as long as you don't use obvious stuff like a noise gate etc.

The major problem I have with these amps aside from the poor quality control of the bbq grill amps is it's poor performance of all models with US made strats. I do mean poor. All the amps including the blue grillcloth version seemed to hate single coils and strats in general. Maybe I just need to run a volume boost in front to give it more signal when using singles.

 

[Gearjoneser]

Re: How low can an attenuator go before ruining tone?

My own solution to the problem is an expensive OD pedal, the Klon. Nothing I've tried really does it like that unit. It sounds so natural on any amp it's in front of, that I can turn down the amp, and rely on the pedal to get the goods.

As far as the Valvetronix line, try and locate an AD60VTH head for around $400, and use it with your nice cab. Compared to what you heard in the store, the head on your Edana's Vin 30/H30 cab will be far better.
I just look at the amp models as overall tone shapers, then let all the good tones come from tweaking all the volumes and gains on the amp. For instance, you might find a better highgain tone using some of the cleaner models, but dialing them really gainy with all the available OD options.

Another thing you could consider is using a Vox modeling floorboard in front of your Edana, and tweak it till it sounds as natural as possible. By owning the floorboard or Tonelab, you'll also have something you can take with you when you travel.