How much stage sound do you allocate to amps vs. mains?

[Diminished Triad]

My band has some great amps but we continue to experiment with finding the perfect stage sound and volume levels.
We've tried low volumes coming out of the amps with most of the sound coming from the PA system....and we've tried going heavy with the amps on stage leaving the mains/PA system to carry mostly vocals. There seem to be pros and cons to each side.

Anyone have a rule of thumb or some real experience on how to produce the best large audience sound when dividing your guitars and bass and keys between their individual amps and the PA system? Thanks!

 

[IM4Tone]

Re: How much stage sound do you allocate to amps vs. mains?

Drummers usually dictate stage volume, unless using an electronic drum kit, or put in a 'cage'.
I like amps and other instruments around 90-92 db @ around 8 ft. during vocals and + another 8-10 db for leads, then adjust the PA to meet the venue....Crank it if the crowd wants it. I won't play with guys who can't/won't control their volume. I value my hearing and hate situations where two people are competing for the highest volume.

 

[Demanic]

Re: How much stage sound do you allocate to amps vs. mains?

Nothing worse than volume wars.

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[koshikas]

Re: How much stage sound do you allocate to amps vs. mains?

yes drummers dictate stage volume so long everyone can listen to what they are doing, including the vocalist if there are any

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[Ascension]

Re: How much stage sound do you allocate to amps vs. mains?

Nothing worse than volume wars.

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You aren't kidding!
Just left a Church gig that was REALLY extreme in that not only with the other guitar player but the entire band. Near physical pain stage levels like here!

I'm playing a 120 watt Peavey Ultra + head on a 2/12 here on 6 or above just to hear myself!! Had to be 120+ on stage here!!!
Recorded with a Zoom Q3 HD and it knocked the levels down to where it didn't clip and sounds decent but in the room trust me it's BRUTAL!!!

 

[Ascension]

Re: How much stage sound do you allocate to amps vs. mains?

Drummers usually dictate stage volume, unless using an electronic drum kit, or put in a 'cage'.
I like amps and other instruments around 90-92 db @ around 8 ft. during vocals and + another 8-10 db for leads, then adjust the PA to meet the venue....Crank it if the crowd wants it. I won't play with guys who can't/won't control their volume. I value my hearing and hate situations where two people are competing for the highest volume.

About were I run normally on stage.
This is from this morning with my old Boogie .50 cal + and my PRS Cu 24. I'm running around 90 on stage here and miced.

 

[chadd]

Re: How much stage sound do you allocate to amps vs. mains?

Guitar amps generally project sound straight out in front of them and closed back cabinets are much worse about this than combos. Without guitars in the PA, anyone more than a few feet off line from the cabinet will get a very different sound than what someone in the "beam" will hear. If for no other reason, amps are for stage volume and PA gear is for the crowd.

 

[SJ318]

Re: How much stage sound do you allocate to amps vs. mains?

Hello,
Been here with that same problem. I think I'm good, not great. My war has to do with the leader who is not good, and can never find where he is going, thinks I'm suddenly "too loud" after playing with him for years and years. So to him, loudest is bestest! He would never admit this.
The best thing in my mind is if you are so lucky - and have a sound guy that you both like, I would be happy to agree on a stage volume with the other guy, and trust the sound man to crank me or him for solo's. In fact, I play more inspired with that huge left and right mains sound. Great ambience.
Sadly, I don't play enough to know any sound guys. But guitar volume wars are enough to make me walk out. Even if it means never playing again, which is a too long story I've told too many times.
A SOUND GUY WHO LIKES BOTH PLAYERS!!! What a dream. At this point I play a Fender Hot Rod Deluxe, 40 watts, 1 V30 at half way up, clean channel only. 1 pedal at unity gain (for a little dirt-Sparkle Drive)to match the drummer when I stand close to center stage. Hit my second Sparkle drive set to raise the volume as if the volume knob on my amp was manually turned up from 5 to 8 on a 1-10 volume knob. Have no idea what the DB would be, but you get the idea.
The drummer makes me adjust to him, which is fine by me. He is good and has fun and his level is that of a good rock drummer kicking it for lots of fun. Love the guy. My story, hope it helps somehow.
SJB

 

[Securb]

Re: How much stage sound do you allocate to amps vs. mains?

It really depends on the size of the room. Big rooms/theaters your amp is not much more than a monitor for you. Smaller venues you might not even have to mic the amp.

 

[Lake Placid Blues]

Re: How much stage sound do you allocate to amps vs. mains?

I have always turned down when asked to. This usually results in not being being able to hear myself very well and also in a poorly balanced gig tape, but it's better than a volume war situation.

As mentioned above the drummer dictates stage volume. I notice that even big time bands playing in big venues or even outdoors often use plexi glass baffles around drums and in front of 4x12 guitar cabs. It's a fine line when you just have a basic PA to find the right balance. The answer is better stage monitors than a basic system provides. This leads to the need of a sound man that knows his business and understands your bands unique sound. If its a guitar centered band but the sound man values singers and lyrics more, then your not going to be happy.

Another problem often from turning down (to unreasonable levels) is a degrading of tone quality. And this really bugs me. Very few amps sound as good turned down as they do turned up. Some things you can do:

* Use less efficient speakers. For example, a 25 watt amp with Vintage 30s, or G12H30s, is as powerful as a 50 watt amp with Green backs, and a 50 watt amp is almost as loud as a 100 watt amp-assuming the same speakers.
* Don't use a small open back 1x12 unless your mic-ing through a very good PA and monitors system. These have very poor sound spread and so you need to run them louder to hear them off axis. Plus they are brighter open back and that will pierce ears on axis. A 2x12 is about ideal for the bar gig.
* Don't show up with a 4x12 unless it a large venue or outdoors. Although it may not actually be louder than a smaller speaker cab, everybody will think it is-especially the house sound guy.
* Use small wattage amps for small venues. Although I have read reports that the Marshall JVM series and the EVH 50 watt amps sound good at whisper volume, these are the exceptions to the rule.

 

[guitfiddle]

Re: How much stage sound do you allocate to amps vs. mains?

Loud enough to hear my guitar blend with the drums. Any more than that screws up the band's stage mix without factoring in monitors, and I mainly want vocals there.

 

[chadd]

Re: How much stage sound do you allocate to amps vs. mains?

* Don't use a small open back 1x12 unless your mic-ing through a very good PA and monitors system. These have very poor sound spread and so you need to run them louder to hear them off axis. Plus they are brighter open back and that will pierce ears on axis. A 2x12 is about ideal for the bar gig.
* Don't show up with a 4x12 unless it a large venue or outdoors. Although it may not actually be louder than a smaller speaker cab, everybody will think it is-especially the house sound guy.
* Use small wattage amps for small venues. Although I have read reports that the Marshall JVM series and the EVH 50 watt amps sound good at whisper volume, these are the exceptions to the rule.

I couldn't disagree more with some of your points. I find that an open back cabinet, even a 1x12, is much better for "sound spread" on stage than a closed back cabinet. A 2x12 is no better or worse than any other setup for a bar gig. In fact, the smaller the stage, the more likely I am to want to use a 4x12, as the upper pair of speakers make it easier for me to hear myself without having to use excessive volume. Using a lower wattage amp for a smaller venue isn't all that practical for a lot of people either. If you need sparkling clean to play heavy stuff with a lot of low end, lower wattage amps are exactly what you don't want.

I routinely have to be asked to turn up on stage, as I only need enough volume to hear myself IN the mix, as opposed to OVER the mix. For those that prefer to run their amps full out, or anywhere close to that, plexi shields or even a moving blankets over the cabinet work wonders at controlling stage volume, while allowing a microphone to capture the tone for the PA.

 

[Lake Placid Blues]

Re: How much stage sound do you allocate to amps vs. mains?

I forgot about the chuggiers. It's just so alien to me.

 

[Lake Placid Blues]

Re: How much stage sound do you allocate to amps vs. mains?

What I mean of course, is that your experience is different from mine. I have gigged 1x12s and I have gigged 4x12s. I actually agree with the thoughts on 4x12s but my point is on how people to react to them.

 

[Mincer]

Re: How much stage sound do you allocate to amps vs. mains?

We got rid of all of the amps and monitors and run IEMs now. Everyone goes direct. The only stage volume is the drums, which I can't hear with the IEMs in. Best decision for our sound we could have made.

 

[IM4Tone]

Re: How much stage sound do you allocate to amps vs. mains?

We got rid of all of the amps and monitors and run IEMs now. Everyone goes direct. The only stage volume is the drums, which I can't hear with the IEMs in. Best decision for our sound we could have made.

What are you using between your amp and the PA?

 

[Diminished Triad]

Re: How much stage sound do you allocate to amps vs. mains?

We got rid of all of the amps and monitors and run IEMs now. Everyone goes direct. The only stage volume is the drums, which I can't hear with the IEMs in. Best decision for our sound we could have made.

I manage a band that has opened for some popular touring bands...and they all say the same. I've never tried...but all I hear is IEMs make all the difference in the world. The reason we have not made the switch (yet) is simply cost. With a 9 piece band (or any size band for that matter) the decent IEMs run expensive. It's got to happen one day ....at some point we cannot afford not to. Thanks for the info!

 

[Mincer]

Re: How much stage sound do you allocate to amps vs. mains?

What are you using between your amp and the PA?

No amp. i use a guitar>pedals>Tech21 Fly Rig 5. Sounds massive through the PA and in my ears. BTW, we each have our own mix.

 

[IM4Tone]

Re: How much stage sound do you allocate to amps vs. mains?

No amp. i use a guitar>pedals>Tech21 Fly Rig 5. Sounds massive through the PA and in my ears. BTW, we each have our own mix.

Thanks, I meant to say between your guitar and the PA......you read my mind.

 

[JOLLY]

Re: How much stage sound do you allocate to amps vs. mains?

It's all about compromise.