Hybrid question.

[SJ318]

Gentlemen and ladies,
In my 59/Custom, one side has purple looking wires and the other coil has orange wire. Which coil
has the the most turns, therefore the loudest coil?
The slugs always have more "grab" on the magnet than the screws. I get why. So, my big idea is to
turn the slug side closest to the bridge to get more treble grab than the screw. I can easily raise the slugs to fit through the screw holes, easiest mod I've done. I figure if the slug side is stronger, and closest to the bridge, I can get some thicker high end this way.
I am doing this as my band mates hate bare coils, especially on the SG. I understand. This way, no one will see the difference, and it might sound great this way. With the cover on, I can still get a loud but great sound. Thoughts on the wires? MJ, whom I love, put a JB slug on one side and 59 on the other coil. I asked her and she said that's what I asked for. Definetly a miss understanding, so it's has 13K resistence. This bothered me so I asked her and said, that it would still clean up well. Said I'd love it.
I trust her, so I tried it and it sounded pretty great.
Comments?
Steve Buffington

 

[LtKojak]

Re: Hybrid question.

I figure if the slug side is stronger, and closest to the bridge, I can get some thicker high end this way

Hi Steve! I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad news for you, but doing that will have exactly the opposite effect you're looking for.

The reason the '59/Custom Hybrid works so well is because of the way's been conceived, meaning having the dominant coil farther away from the bridge, so, consider yourself warned about not quite getting a satisfying outcome if you reverse it.

HTH,

 

[gregory]

Re: Hybrid question.

I'm not aware of some universal preference; rather, people have put the Custom coil nearest the bridge and have been happy with the result.

 

[AlexR]

Re: Hybrid question.

^ Nice edit.

If you have a pickup which has a stronger coil, more of the pickup's eq/signal will come from that (especially given the output discrepancy with the c/59). So the custom coil being the slug and located further from the bridge will make the pickup fatter not only because the stronger inductance is further from the bridge, not only because that coil produces a thicker eq just generally, but also because the further distance has more string excursion in the first place.

So the 'nonsense' that you quite correctly edited out was indeed incorrect. Personal preference is partially irrelevant as people want a whole range of outcomes from a pickup, clarity might be one, bite another

 

[gregory]

Re: Hybrid question.

I removed the word because it could be viewed as uncivil. I still think the business about the dominant coil of the 59/Custom needing to be the inner one is nonsense, however. I recall that people were first making the hybrid with a Custom screw coil nearest the bridge before Seymour Duncan began producing them the other way.

Regarding the Custom slug coil vs Custom screw nearest the bridge, I have no idea. I've put the slug coil of other bridge pickups toward the bridge and have had mixed results. I haven't done it with the 59/Custom. I will absolutely concede that one can expect specific differences based on an objective understanding of the parts and how and where they go together.

I strongly doubt there is a universal subjective preference on which configuration and orientation of the 59/Custom works best for all people in all guitars. It could easily be that Steve might prefer the stock pickup reversed for other more predominant reasons even if he gets the opposite of a "thicker high end", though I'm not so certain he will get the opposite.

But alas, he just shouldn't bother; let discouragement save the day!

 

[AlexR]

Re: Hybrid question.

Well, the call of nonsense about the coil being closer to the fretboard producing the fatter of the two tones is certainly incorrect. Thats straight from the playbook of winders - David Plummer of Zhangbucker in this case. And a small bit of logical thinking about the tones a typical C and 59 coil will make as part of a production C/59 certainly reinforces this effect.
So if we are only talking about a thicker bridge tone as requested by the OP (and the almost 100% outcome as correctly described by Lt) then for the purposes of this thread subject the stronger coil in the typical slug position would be the advice that is going to be the most accurate.
Lets face it - this position almost always produces enough highs, but its always the mids that makes for the thickness.

If you had the C screw coil then a flip could allow for some adjustment possibility. I'm not sure how this would go compared with the slugs - as the latter has more mass and the almost the full length is within depth of the coils.

 

[gregory]

Re: Hybrid question.

Well, the call of nonsense about the coil being closer to the fretboard producing the fatter of the two tones is certainly incorrect.

That was never the call of nonsense. It was in response to his second paragraph by itself, which was written in a way that didn't tie it to his first paragraph (paragraphs are intended to separate thoughts, but I'll spare you from a lesson on what entails effective communication).

Regardless, I appreciate that you made a effort to share this knowledge.

 

[SJ318]

Re: Hybrid question.

Gregory and all.
It seems to be not as bright as my other Hybrid. Wood not withstanding. Electronics the same. So if the slug coil is stronger, it seems to me that if I radius the slugs, turn it so it is closest to the saddles, I should get more treble, highs,and still keep the power. Gregory, you are (no offense intended) the most critical person about everything any one says. That's OK. As long as it is not uncivil. So in my shorter sentence in this post, does that not make sense? Let me add "in general?"
Steve Buffington

 

[gregory]

Re: Hybrid question.

So long as you have enough lead length, rotating a pickup 180 degrees is just about the easiest thing you can do.

I'd just try it.

 

[SJ318]

Re: Hybrid question.

To all-
I just rotated the p'up and it gives a much more crispy, lively, louder, tone that is not shrill. (We all have different words for the same thing.)
I lowered the screws a lot on the low E and A and a little on the D. This gives me a tight sound on my lower and much heavier than normal low strings. The high G,B,E, I left almost even, down 2 mm or so. I love it so much I am going to 180 my Hybrid in my Stage Strat, so my Snow White Strat and my SG '61 re-issue with the new Hybrid bridge are now my 2 stage guitars, that I get to play live next week at an outdoor festival. Which to me is a big deal.
Thanks for the discussion, I could not be happier.
Steve Buffington

 

[dave74]

Re: Hybrid question.

To all-
I just rotated the p'up and it gives a much more crispy, lively, louder, tone that is not shrill. (We all have different words for the same thing.)
I lowered the screws a lot on the low E and A and a little on the D. This gives me a tight sound on my lower and much heavier than normal low strings. The high G,B,E, I left almost even, down 2 mm or so. I love it so much I am going to 180 my Hybrid in my Stage Strat, so my Snow White Strat and my SG '61 re-issue with the new Hybrid bridge are now my 2 stage guitars, that I get to play live next week at an outdoor festival. Which to me is a big deal.
Thanks for the discussion, I could not be happier.
Steve Buffington

Wouldn't doing the opposite to the big-string poles actually work better?,,,,,,(or maybe too much so)
In other words for the big strings to sound clearer and tighter wouldn't it be better to raise the poles back up and then lower the whole bass-side of the pickup by the same amount.
Just curious,,,,,,,,I might just be off on what is going on.

I

 

[gregory]

Re: Hybrid question.

First: I'm guessing the pickup has been raised so that it's pretty close to the strings.

The adjustable poles are for the 59 coil which is closer to the neck allowing it to sense more bass. Neither factor (location and style of wind) is particularly conducive to maximizing tight bass. On the other hand, the Custom slug coil, the one doing most of the heavy lifting in the bass department anyway, is now sensing each string closest to the bridge, which will naturally give the tightest response. By reducing the height of the pole pieces, the looser bass coming from the 59 coil is reduced. Now imagine what happens to the voicing of the treble stings: the bright 59 coil is now sensing more string vibration and is in the location to get a fuller response. The dark Custom coil is in the brightest possible location. The result: thicker high end, perhaps???

At this point I would consider actually shortening the screws under the bass strings, or going to short hex pieces if the material is more conducive to having an articulate response. Either way, they can then be raised again without loosening the bass. I would like to think that you would still want to get a nice even treble response from the 59 coil for all the strings.

 

[SJ318]

Re: Hybrid question.

Gregory,
You are correct. But with 9, 11, 15, 24, 36, 46 is a set that is normally 9,11,16,24,32,42. Normally. So the thicker strings add too much of a loud, muddy bass sound, so I leave the p'up in general close on the high strings, like you said, and fairly low by most folks standards on the bass side.
So with the slugs fairly low they are still over powering and muddy. So I screwed the poles down, on the low E and A about 4 turns or so into the bobbin, which still give me a powerful yet clean tight lower end that matches the strings nicely all around.
Dave74,
So, after reading this, with the slug side closest the the saddles, does this make better sense to you? I hope so, what I am doing is really easy, in fact, I decided not to bother radiussing the slugs, as I asked for no potting, and it is hard and everywhere, I did call MJ, she apologized, and if MJ made a mistake, it is small one and I love her. She offered to send it back, she would fix it, etc. So I said no worries, I can do it myself. I have a hair dryer.
Steve Buffington

 

[AlexR]

Re: Hybrid question.

I hope you realise a hairdryer does NOTHING to remove wax in the coil. If you want it unpotted, getting a new one is your only solution.

 

[eclecticsynergy]

Re: Hybrid question.

Much of what was said in this thread assumed the pickup in question was a 59/Custom hybrid. I believe what you have is in fact a 59/JB hybrid. Same principle but a rather different animal than the 59/C. And I imagine it could work better turned around 180 degrees than a 59/C would have.

As for the hairdryer, they can be used to loosen the cover on a potted humbucker. But not for removing the wax itself.

 

[Despair]

Re: Hybrid question.

I hope you realise a hairdryer does NOTHING to remove wax in the coil. If you want it unpotted, getting a new one is your only solution.

Not precisely accurate. Hairdryer can remove SOME wax... But I do quite agree that's not the same thing as an unpotted pickup, and it's not going to ever get there. Whether it's close enough is an individual call, but it wouldn't be for me if I wanted an unpotted pickup.

 

[AlexR]

Re: Hybrid question.

^ well, it removes 'none' of the wax in the coil. And yes 'people' have tested this by using heat guns and then cutting the pickup open to see how much of the wax has been removed (people being James of ReWind Pickups in this case - and yes I have seen the pictorial proof of said results of testing).

You maybe remove wax from the outer layer or two. In terms of unpotting the pickup and providing any tonal benefit there is none/barely audible in all the tests James has done. Of course you might find variances on individual items as you could expect.

Naturally the more pedantic around here could say that the outer layers removed do constitute 'some'. But functionally/audibly it still remains 'none'.

 

[SJ318]

Re: Hybrid question.

eclecticsynergy,
You are exactly right. It is a 59/JB Hybrid, it says JB right on the base plate. I did call MJ about that separately - she said that's what I asked for, I told her I disliked the JB most of any p'up I have played.
She said, don't worry, it will sound just as good and also clean up, trust me, it is all done, if you don't like it send it back. So she sent it.
So I trusted her, then called about the wax, which I talked about already. The reason I didn't radius the slugs was because I didn't feel like getting a hair dryer out and spending an hour on low heat with a rag underneath. There was too much hard wax under the bobbin. I left that out cuz it's boring, and at this point there was a lot of wax removed by MJ anyway.
As long as I kept it open coil (double parchment btw) and about half the wax gone, that was good enough for me. I am too OCD, but this time I just said F***-it. I'll try it. I am glad I did. My other 59/Custom hybrid is just that, also no wax at all, open coil. This 59/JB sounds fabulous. I'll never remove it. It is in my SG '61 RI to stay.
I am losing my own religion about potted p'ups, still, being old school, if I order another p'up, I will make sure MJ or whomever does not pot it at all, and gets the coils right. That said, this 59/JB works great as is, I A/B'd them and dam if the newer one didn't seem to have a little more crackle and spice than the old one. And clean up just as well. Of course, I did 180 it, so not a real fair test as the strongest coil was now closer to the saddles.
But you get the general idea.
Steve Buffington

 

[Zhangliqun]

Re: Hybrid question.

The coil closer to the bridge is going to give you higher frequencies because the closer to the bridge you get, the higher the freqs coming off the string and vice versa. Anyone who doubts this, just pluck a string with a pick on your unplugged or acoustic guitar starting at the 12th fret and gradually move toward the nut or bridge -- the sound will get thinner, brighter and weaker as you go.

A stronger slug coil (slug coil in 99% of cases facing away from bridge) will emphasize the lows and mids more than two even coils, MUCH more than a bucker with a stronger screw coil. This you can also test by having a hybrid-style pickup and testing it one way, then spinning it 180 degrees and testing it again.

 

[gregory]

Re: Hybrid question.

Yes, and the closer you get to the bridge the larger the difference becomes.

That and everything else you said is precisely why I liked an SH-6N in the bridge position of my HSS guitar with the slug coils closest to the bridge and the following modifications: A5 magnet and swapping out the long screws with short hex screws.

...and there was still enough body for it to sound really good in parallel mode, provided that I added an RC to tame a little brittleness.