Independent volumes poll.
- Thread starter mudpuppy
- Start date
mudpuppy
New member
MasterKtulu
New member
Re: Independent volumes poll.
I just discovered independent wiring about two weeks ago, and I love it! I just bought my first ever two volume guitar about a month ago (Epiphone Les Paul Custom) and I was confused that I couldn't mix the volumes well at the center pickup selector position. I wrongly assumed that all two volume guitars had independent volumes, as to me it just makes sense.
That being said, is there a reason that it isn't done more often on stock guitars? Does it affect the sound in a negative way?
I just discovered independent wiring about two weeks ago, and I love it! I just bought my first ever two volume guitar about a month ago (Epiphone Les Paul Custom) and I was confused that I couldn't mix the volumes well at the center pickup selector position. I wrongly assumed that all two volume guitars had independent volumes, as to me it just makes sense.
That being said, is there a reason that it isn't done more often on stock guitars? Does it affect the sound in a negative way?
mudpuppy
New member
Re: Independent volumes poll.
That's interesting. I have a early to mid '90s epi LPC, and mine came stock with the independent wiring. Some say that you lose treble when backing off the volume, but I don't notice any problem even without treble bleed caps. I like independent because I live mostly at the middle switch postion.
That's interesting. I have a early to mid '90s epi LPC, and mine came stock with the independent wiring. Some say that you lose treble when backing off the volume, but I don't notice any problem even without treble bleed caps. I like independent because I live mostly at the middle switch postion.
blueman335
Mojo's Minions
Re: Independent volumes poll.
I've had many mid-priced imports over the years, and almost every one came with dependent wiring. I have no idea why.
I switched all of them over to independent volumes (takes only minutes & requires no extra parts). I like being able to blend the PU's. If I want to warm the bridge a little, I can dial in just a bit of the neck, and vice versa, if I want to brighten the neck, I can dial in a dash of bridge. Much more versatile.
Plus you can set the neck volume lower for rhythm, and the bridge at full volume for solos. Going from mellow, rich chords to loud, stinging solos is a flip of the toggle. Relative volumes are preset, so you go back to the exact same rhythm volume, instead of guessing (and fooling with the volume controls every song).
I've had many mid-priced imports over the years, and almost every one came with dependent wiring. I have no idea why.
I switched all of them over to independent volumes (takes only minutes & requires no extra parts). I like being able to blend the PU's. If I want to warm the bridge a little, I can dial in just a bit of the neck, and vice versa, if I want to brighten the neck, I can dial in a dash of bridge. Much more versatile.
Plus you can set the neck volume lower for rhythm, and the bridge at full volume for solos. Going from mellow, rich chords to loud, stinging solos is a flip of the toggle. Relative volumes are preset, so you go back to the exact same rhythm volume, instead of guessing (and fooling with the volume controls every song).
Ascension
Well-known member
Re: Independent volumes poll.
Guys be careful here as I have had BIG TIME buzz problems when the pickup input was wired to the center of the pot and the output to the outside. When you put the guitar down after rolling the volume all the way down you will get an audible ground humm big time if playing at high gain on an amp that has a higher input impedence like my Prosonics do. That is due to how the signal is shunted to ground in the pot and it's flat a PITA to figure that out if you don't know this makes a difference.
Guys be careful here as I have had BIG TIME buzz problems when the pickup input was wired to the center of the pot and the output to the outside. When you put the guitar down after rolling the volume all the way down you will get an audible ground humm big time if playing at high gain on an amp that has a higher input impedence like my Prosonics do. That is due to how the signal is shunted to ground in the pot and it's flat a PITA to figure that out if you don't know this makes a difference.
Last edited:
blueman335
Mojo's Minions
Re: Independent volumes poll.
Never had that problem. If you do it right, just switching lugs, I don't see how that can get screwed up.
Never had that problem. If you do it right, just switching lugs, I don't see how that can get screwed up.
mudpuppy
New member
Re: Independent volumes poll.
I can very well believe this. When you back volume all the way down with the independent version, your amp is seeing a 250K or 500K resistance, rather than zero for dependent. This is going to give you less noise immunity with the independent at zero-to-low volume settings on the guitar. Could be a problem if shielding is not perfect. TANSTAAFL. Obvious solution is to unplug from the amp rather than backing off volume.
Edit: btw, thanks for your observations. The main reason I posted the poll is that although I prefer independent, I figured that there must be some good reasons that dependent is used at least equally often.
I can very well believe this. When you back volume all the way down with the independent version, your amp is seeing a 250K or 500K resistance, rather than zero for dependent. This is going to give you less noise immunity with the independent at zero-to-low volume settings on the guitar. Could be a problem if shielding is not perfect. TANSTAAFL. Obvious solution is to unplug from the amp rather than backing off volume.
Edit: btw, thanks for your observations. The main reason I posted the poll is that although I prefer independent, I figured that there must be some good reasons that dependent is used at least equally often.
Last edited:
Ascension
Well-known member
Re: Independent volumes poll.
On most amps it's not that huge of a issue. however I play through these Fender Prosonics. Between the cascading ultra high gain and the high input impedence they pick up everything. Heck if I run the big Monster cables I can hear it through the speakers when I drop the cable on the ground due to the microphonics of the cable!!
I have a buzz in my Washburn Stealth right now that is due I strongly suspect to the way Washburn wired these and this very issue. Listen here.
http://www.box.net/shared/tqpx224tx3
This probably why Dime out of frustration broke the only Stealth Slime bolt built on stage after Washburn could not get the buzz out of the guitar even after changing out the full electronics TWICE!
On the Marshall JCM 2000 DSL I played in the shop where I bought the guitar this was not noticable. Through my Prosonic however it's loud and will drive you NUTS! Had exactly the same problem with 2 of my V220 Carvins when I rewired them as a master volume only. I had the hot lead from the switch on the center tap and the output to the tone to the outside. It buzzed like crazy when I rolled the volume down and pulled my hand off the guitar. I sold a guitar that I have kicked my self for selling out of frustration over this. Checked all my grounds, shielding, solder joints, swapped volume pots twice and still I had the BUZZ. Only after out of frustration I had sold my Pearl White 1988 V220 with the straight headstock did I find the issue with being on the wrong pot lug on the other V220 I had. I swapped the lugs and bang no buzz but I had already sold the White one :banghead::banghead::banghead:.
On most amps it's not that huge of a issue. however I play through these Fender Prosonics. Between the cascading ultra high gain and the high input impedence they pick up everything. Heck if I run the big Monster cables I can hear it through the speakers when I drop the cable on the ground due to the microphonics of the cable!!
I have a buzz in my Washburn Stealth right now that is due I strongly suspect to the way Washburn wired these and this very issue. Listen here.
http://www.box.net/shared/tqpx224tx3
This probably why Dime out of frustration broke the only Stealth Slime bolt built on stage after Washburn could not get the buzz out of the guitar even after changing out the full electronics TWICE!
On the Marshall JCM 2000 DSL I played in the shop where I bought the guitar this was not noticable. Through my Prosonic however it's loud and will drive you NUTS! Had exactly the same problem with 2 of my V220 Carvins when I rewired them as a master volume only. I had the hot lead from the switch on the center tap and the output to the tone to the outside. It buzzed like crazy when I rolled the volume down and pulled my hand off the guitar. I sold a guitar that I have kicked my self for selling out of frustration over this. Checked all my grounds, shielding, solder joints, swapped volume pots twice and still I had the BUZZ. Only after out of frustration I had sold my Pearl White 1988 V220 with the straight headstock did I find the issue with being on the wrong pot lug on the other V220 I had. I swapped the lugs and bang no buzz but I had already sold the White one :banghead::banghead::banghead:.
Last edited:
uOpt
Something Cool
Re: Independent volumes poll.
Connecting the potentiometers backwards will cause a huge increase in resistance load when you roll down the the pot(s).
In frequency response terms that means that you kill your resonance peak, entirely, with very few volume reduction.
In the middle position (both pickups) the flat sound without resonance peak might be acceptable, but keep in mind that the individual pot is still connected backwards when you only have one pickup on. You will generally not be able to use the volume pot without huge loss of resonance peak even when you don't need the independent controls.
Connecting the potentiometers backwards will cause a huge increase in resistance load when you roll down the the pot(s).
In frequency response terms that means that you kill your resonance peak, entirely, with very few volume reduction.
In the middle position (both pickups) the flat sound without resonance peak might be acceptable, but keep in mind that the individual pot is still connected backwards when you only have one pickup on. You will generally not be able to use the volume pot without huge loss of resonance peak even when you don't need the independent controls.
mudpuppy
New member
Re: Independent volumes poll.
This is a great example of where it would be nice to have some quantitative vs. qualitative data. Other examples that come to mind are 250K vs. 500K pots and vintage vs. modern tone controls. A while back I downloaded a free demo version of some circuit simulation software, but haven't had a chance to mess with it much yet. I really need to make time. One challange is how to model a pickup. Even though d.c. resistance values a published, you also need inductance and capacitance values to model them. I seem to remember that I've seen 'typical' values published in an article from someone from Germany. I know that someone out there is going to say that a pot or cap has a soul, and can't be reduced to numbers: I won't agrue, but only suggest refilling your bong and going back to your drum circle.
This is a great example of where it would be nice to have some quantitative vs. qualitative data. Other examples that come to mind are 250K vs. 500K pots and vintage vs. modern tone controls. A while back I downloaded a free demo version of some circuit simulation software, but haven't had a chance to mess with it much yet. I really need to make time. One challange is how to model a pickup. Even though d.c. resistance values a published, you also need inductance and capacitance values to model them. I seem to remember that I've seen 'typical' values published in an article from someone from Germany. I know that someone out there is going to say that a pot or cap has a soul, and can't be reduced to numbers: I won't agrue, but only suggest refilling your bong and going back to your drum circle.
uOpt
Something Cool
Re: Independent volumes poll.
But it's very simple. No simulator required.
If you connect a 250 Kohm pot backwards (pickup hot on slider) and you turn it to a volume reduction by 6 db (3 db is about an audible reduction, 6 db more audible), then the whole thing behaves like you had used a 62 Kohm volume pot in the first place.
Who would voluntarily use a 62 Kohm volume pot.
But it's very simple. No simulator required.
If you connect a 250 Kohm pot backwards (pickup hot on slider) and you turn it to a volume reduction by 6 db (3 db is about an audible reduction, 6 db more audible), then the whole thing behaves like you had used a 62 Kohm volume pot in the first place.
Who would voluntarily use a 62 Kohm volume pot.
mudpuppy
New member
Re: Independent volumes poll.
No, I wouldn't. But I'm just curious as to how much this is going to change your frequency response curve. I'll admit that I don't know enough to calculate this by hand. Are you going to shift your resonant peak (by how may Hz) or just flatten it and by how many db.
No, I wouldn't. But I'm just curious as to how much this is going to change your frequency response curve. I'll admit that I don't know enough to calculate this by hand. Are you going to shift your resonant peak (by how may Hz) or just flatten it and by how many db.
uOpt
Something Cool
Re: Independent volumes poll.
The "curve" isn't just an EQ curve. A pickup is a second-order low pass filter with a resonance peak at the cutoff frequency. The overwhelming majority of frequency response of a pickup is in that resonance peak. The peak has an amplitude and of course a frequency (which is the same as the cutoff frequency of the low pass filter).
Putting on capacitive or resistance loads across the output of a pickup changes the resonance peak, that means those loads change the characteristic even though they aren't filters on their own.
A capacitance across the output lowers the frequency of the resonance peak, "changes character" so to speak.
A resistor across the output lowers the amplitude of the resonance peak which "loses character" so to speak. Pickups like Strat pickup have too much resonance peak so you cut off the amplitude by about a third by using a 250 Kohm volume pot instead of a 500 Kohm one. But if you go to 62 Kohm you have completely eliminated the resonance peak and the character of the pickup is lost.
The "curve" isn't just an EQ curve. A pickup is a second-order low pass filter with a resonance peak at the cutoff frequency. The overwhelming majority of frequency response of a pickup is in that resonance peak. The peak has an amplitude and of course a frequency (which is the same as the cutoff frequency of the low pass filter).
Putting on capacitive or resistance loads across the output of a pickup changes the resonance peak, that means those loads change the characteristic even though they aren't filters on their own.
A capacitance across the output lowers the frequency of the resonance peak, "changes character" so to speak.
A resistor across the output lowers the amplitude of the resonance peak which "loses character" so to speak. Pickups like Strat pickup have too much resonance peak so you cut off the amplitude by about a third by using a 250 Kohm volume pot instead of a 500 Kohm one. But if you go to 62 Kohm you have completely eliminated the resonance peak and the character of the pickup is lost.
