Intonation again

[Davey]

so i went on and tried to check my intonation, using the inbuilt tuner in the guitarport..
turns out, it's such a mess you'd go cross eyed.

now. i got a fixed bridge (meaning it's one solid piece of metal, no adjustable saddles, just two allen bolts at the back to adjust the closer/further away from the neck.

it was the closest as it can get, and the notes on the 12th fret were sharp (by about 15Hz if the thing is believeable). the thread in The Vault says i should move it closer, but i cant. i tried moving it further in an act of desperation and retune it, but it was just as expected, the notes were even sharper.

what should i do? fiddle with the truss rod? throw it so hard it lands on Zerb's backyard? i need help

 

[Robert S.]

Re: Intonation again

If your 12th fret is sharp, you need to move the bridge or saddles away from the nut. Think about it, the longer the string, the lower the pitch.

 

[rinse_master]

Re: Intonation again

what should i do? fiddle with the truss rod? throw it so hard it lands on Zerb's backyard? i need help

LOL!, but seriously, what Robert said (I have a bit of trouble getting my head round which way to move the saddles, drives me nuts)

 

[FretFire]

Re: Intonation again

Yep move it the other way, hence the even sharper notes when you moved it towards the headstock. Have fun .

 

[gordon_39422]

Re: Intonation again

The purpose of intonation is to evenly divide the distance from the nut to saddle directly on the 12th fret. For example, consider a 24" scale. The distance from the nut to the 12 fret is 12". If the intonation is really bad, set the distance from the 12th fret to the 12 fret to the saddle to match the distance of the nut-12th fret measurement. Now you need to perfect the intonation of the corresponding pitches. To do this accurately you need a REAL chromatic tuner. Preferably one that distinguishes between harmonic vibrations and the root note and has a very precise accurace measurement (+ or - 1 cent) such as the Korg DTR 1000 or even better, a Peterson Strobe Tuner. Precisely tune the E string open and press on the 12th fret with the same pressure that you use while jamming. Note the amount of sharpness or flatness (+ or - cents) and adjust the saddle half that value. For easy math, let's say the 12th fret was sharp by 10 cents. If the 12th fret is sharp that means the distance from the saddle to the 12th fret is shorter than exactly half the distance from the nut to the saddle. Thus, you need to move the saddle back to lengthen the distance. Strike the open string and move the saddle away from the 12th fret until the open string is flat in half the amount the 12th fret was sharp. In this case, move the saddle until the open string is flat by 5 cents. Re-Tune the open string (at the tuning key on the headstock), and depress the 12th fret and take note of the pitch. It should be very close, but remember to move only half the value of the pitch difference. Repeat until the pitch is equally in tune open as well as at the 12th fret. Once the first string is tuned, move to the next string. Always work with only one string at a time to minimize confusion.

If you alter the action, or the height of the saddles, you must also readjust the intonation.

BTW, what recording platform are you using with you Guitar Port? I spent a few minutes on you music link and some of those tones are pretty good!! If you are really into recording, check out this link for some very useful input...

http://www.homerecording.com/bbs/

Enjoy!!

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: Intonation again

Here's how I'd do it:

Hold the guitar vertical like it would be if you were playing it...not laying down.

Plug into your tuner and hit a harmonic at the 12th fret of your low E and tune the string to pitch.

Now fret that note at the 12th fret. If it's sharp, move you bridge back until the tuner says it's in tune. If it's flat, move your bridge forward.

Now hit a harmonic again at the 12th fret of your low E and retune.

Just do this back and forth until the harmonic and the fretted note are exactly the same note and in tune according to your tuner.

Do the same thing with your high E.

That should do the trick.

 

[gordon_39422]

Re: Intonation again

That is definitely another way to skin a cat. In fact it is using the exact laws of physics, only eliminating the use of the 12th fret. Which, isn;t a problem on quality guitars. Some less expensive guitars are made with lower standards of quality and the fret placement can tend to be off in small measurement. If this is the case, the harmonics will be in tune, but the fretted notes will be off. If a guitar is incorrectly fretted, it will never be perfectly in tune, but you can get it as close as possible by splitting hairs.

Hope this is not the case with your Epi....

 

[Davey]

Re: Intonation again

i do believe that IS the case with my epi >.<

i DID move it away from the nut. the notes were even sharper.. i read the thing in the vault wrong =P my bad.. but i did move the whole thing away and it went sharper.

gordon, i use the line 6 guitarport with the guitar port software and cubase SX for recording. i'm not that serious about it, it's more of an hobby and i kind of doubt it's going to grow further than that cos i cant sell this POS guitar to get a better one

ok.. i'll fiddle with the thing more tomorrow... gonna go crash to bed now

 

[Gearjoneser]

Re: Intonation again

Don't forget the step of tuning ALL 6 strings, in between ANY saddle adjustments you make. You're not trying to tune it with the saddle adjustments. When you move the saddle left or right, retune, then check the open note and 12th fret.

On a stoptail bridge without individual saddles, just get the 2 E's perfect.
That means, EVERY note from the 10th to 14th frets on the 2 E strings should read dead center on your tuner. If any of them read sharp, the bridge moves away from the neck. If any read flat, the bridge moves toward the neck.

If you get your guitar setup absolutely perfect, you'll slap yourself for not doing it sooner.

 

[Davey]

Re: Intonation again

Don't forget the step of tuning ALL 6 strings, in between ANY saddle adjustments you make. You're not trying to tune it with the saddle adjustments. When you move the saddle left or right, retune, then check the open note and 12th fret.

i dont have individual/adjustable saddles. the bridge is a wraparound solid bridge

On a stoptail bridge without individual saddles, just get the 2 E's perfect.
That means, EVERY note from the 10th to 14th frets on the 2 E strings should read dead center on your tuner. If any of them read sharp, the bridge moves away from the neck. If any read flat, the bridge moves toward the neck.

If you get your guitar setup absolutely perfect, you'll slap yourself for not doing it sooner.

well, i'll try to move the bridge away as much as i can and then try to tune it again and see if i can tweak it



yay, i found it

i guess i can do something tight =) (at least for the low E.. now follows the rest and see if i got it)


nope... LOL

question:
if i put the bridge too far away from the nut, can it start getting too sharp again?
it's the farthest away it can go at the moment and they're still about 10Hz off key. i tried hitting the harmonics and all of them are dead on, if that helps

 

[ex-250]

Re: Intonation again

**** i havent checked my intonation in 3 months hahaha. ill do it tonight

 

[Robert S.]

Re: Intonation again

Moving away from the nut will not cause the strings to become more sharp again.

 

[Davey]

Re: Intonation again

so, what now? should i get larger screws? i noticed that the big screws that hold the bridge in place are slightly bending forward (towards the nut) .. and thats not a good thing, is it? maybe it was there before, i just didnt notice it till now

i really should get rid of this guitar and get another one.. but who will buy it?

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: Intonation again

Moving away from the nut will not cause the strings to become more sharp again.

No...but it will stretch and tighten the string and raise it up in pitch. Davey, that's why retuning after every change to the bridge is important.

It's a constant move the bridge/then retune thing until you get it right.

Lew

 

[Davey]

Re: Intonation again

i did do it like that lew.. all the way in quarter to half turns till i couldnt get the screws in anymore

 

[Gearjoneser]

Re: Intonation again

Without seeing the guitar, I can't tell if there's a problem beyond a simple setup.
It's possible that your bridge isn't stock and the allen bolts, which feed into the back of the bridge, aren't long enough or something. Read the above instructions very carefully, and check out the post in the vault. If you're neck is straight, the height set where you want it, and the two E's are intonated so that most notes around the 12th frets read dead center, you're finished and the guitar should play good and stay in tune. If not, take it to a pro.

 

[Davey]

Re: Intonation again

yes, the bridge is stock, the neck is so so.. cant really tell if it's 100% straight or how it should be.. it's got a slight relief. how slight i dont know >.<

thing is, i dont want to take it to a pro cos i dont want to throw out even more money for it.. i'm gonna put an add up with the crate amp that i got and see if it sells then..

i'm gonna try this again tomorrow and report back

thanks for all your input guys