Intonation woes

[MattPete]

This past week, I got a set of understring radius gauges and files, and did a tune-up of my Warmoth VIP. I cut the middle 3 saddles lower on the wrap-around bridge, and lowered the nut height on the low-E. It plays fantastic now, and intonation is beautiful.

Except on the D string. When intonating for the 12th fret, the notes around the 2rd fret are way sharp, as are the notes around 17 and higher. Any ideas?

 

[MattPete]

Re: Intonation woes

Along with the radius gauages, my other new toy (er, tool) is the Stewmac string height gauge. When I first restrung the guitar and had the same sorts of intonation issues, I checked the nut height by fretting the 3rd fret and found that the string appeared to be resting on the 1st fret. I then filled the nut with a bit of super glue. This raised the height of the D string at the first fret to .015 inches (unfretted) and < .01 when fretting between the 2nd and 3rd strings.

 

[Zerberus]

Re: Intonation woes

HEY JohnJohn, I was starting to miss ya. What happen, snowed in?

I agree with JohnJohn. If you intonate "traditionally" (12th fret harmonic <-> 12th fret fretted), a high nut will cause the notes to be more and more out of tune the farther they are away fron the 12th fret, and the same but more noticeable going up. This is because the string is being stretched farther in comparison to the tempering of the fretboard and the reference pitch at the 12th fret.

 

[MattPete]

Re: Intonation woes

Nevermind: I think it was the string itself. I was giving the back of the nut a few swipes, to make sure that the string angled over the nut (i.e. so the angle of incidence was near the front of the nut). I did this a few times, retuning and checking after several swipes. I might have made a small difference, but not much (the 3rd fret went from 15 cents sharp to 10 cents sharp).

Then the string broke at the tuner. I replaced it with a new one, tuned up, and the intonation is dead on. I guess I had a dud string.

 

[Zerberus]

Re: Intonation woes

Yep, sometimes the solution is simpler than you think :friday:

 

[Gearjoneser]

Re: Intonation woes

I notice the problem that you and Zerb describe is most common on acoustic guitars, since the only real way to intonate one is to have a perfect setup. Since acoustics are designed to intonate that way, you've really gotta have an impeccable setup on the nut and saddle.

Another intonation technique I use is to go beyond the simple 12th fret intonation.
I fine tune the setup by getting all the notes from the 10th fret to the 20th precicely intonated. If you do that, the guitar will ring like a bell, and all your chords will sing beautifully. You'll smack your head, and wonder why you didn't do it years ago!

 

[Fritz6]

Re: Intonation woes

I notice the problem that you and Zerb describe is most common on acoustic guitars, since the only real way to intonate one is to have a perfect setup. Since acoustics are designed to intonate that way, you've really gotta have an impeccable setup on the nut and saddle.

Another intonation technique I use is to go beyond the simple 12th fret intonation.
I fine tune the setup by getting all the notes from the 10th fret to the 20th precicely intonated. If you do that, the guitar will ring like a bell, and all your chords will sing beautifully. You'll smack your head, and wonder why you didn't do it years ago!

Gear how do you intonate the 10th-20th notes. What harmonics are you comparing them with? Wouldn't intonating the 10th-20th throw off the 12/12 intonation?

 

[rspst14]

Re: Intonation woes

Gear how do you intonate the 10th-20th notes. What harmonics are you comparing them with? Wouldn't intonating the 10th-20th throw off the 12/12 intonation?

That's the tradeoff. I've done this from time to time to try to improve the intonation on certain strings. It works to a certain extent, but in some cases you end up sacrificing tuning accuracy at one place on the neck to make it better another place. Not a problem for me anymore though, I've switched all my guitars over to the Earvana system.

Ryan

 

[theodie]

Re: Intonation woes

Gear how do you intonate the 10th-20th notes. What harmonics are you comparing them with? Wouldn't intonating the 10th-20th throw off the 12/12 intonation?

I dissagree with intonating with harmonics. Do you play the guitar only with harmonics and not fretted notes? If so, I would intonate this way. Chances are you dont. Using harmonics, the note will read flat.

Most folks hit the open string then compare it with the fretted 12th fret on the same string and adjust accordingly. Which is a good way to do it.

Here is how I intonate,
Instead of hitting the open string, I will fret the 5th fret then compare it with the fretted 17th fret. Then I will adjust accordingly.

 

[MattPete]

Re: Intonation woes

I just use a really good tuner (Peterson VS2), tune the open note, then adjust intonation so that 12th fret is dead on with normal finger pressure (going through several iterations and retuning the open note along the way). Then I start moving to higher notes. If I use that method, I can usually get a string to intonate [near] perfectly up down the finger board. Occasionally I might have to make a bit of a compromise here and there. Having said that, the string I had problems with earlier apparently was a dud string, and there was no way to come up with a decent compromise.

 

[theodie]

Re: Intonation woes

I use a Peterson VSII also.

 

[rspst14]

Re: Intonation woes

Yeah, tuning and intonating with harmonics isn't really the best way to go about it. I forget the exact reason why, but Dan Erlewine explains it in his books and recommends not using harmonics to tune.

Ryan

 

[theodie]

Re: Intonation woes

Yeah, tuning and intonating with harmonics isn't really the best way to go about it. I forget the exact reason why, but Dan Erlewine explains it in his books and recommends not using harmonics to tune.

Ryan

I thought my explanation was logical. I have heard the same thing from erlewine and I think my explanation is very similar if I remember right.

 

[Gearjoneser]

Re: Intonation woes

Yeah, the technique I described uses all open and fretted notes, which is all that really matters. I just want to know that all the notes on the fretboard are as close as possible to dead center on a tuner. It has to work, because I never encounter tuning hassles anymore, and all my chords ring true, even up on the neck. It works the best when you're also in the same position you normally play, when you intonate. If you sit 90% of the time, that's how you should intonate, and if you stand more often, then do it when standing. I know that's getting pretty anal, but it makes some sense, especially when you're dealing with very sensitive guitars.