Justin Hayward 335 tone

[Allanp]

Hi guys, I'm wondering if you could help me out. This question is about pups eventually Of all the guitars in the world, Justin Haywards es335 sounds by far the best to my ears. I know much of that is coming from Justin's playing, but that guitar, that tone! I want it! I can't afford an original 63 or original PAFs, but then they were all hand built, all different back then so even if I were to pay those big bucks, chances are they would not be the same. I've played a few vintage guitars, was disappointed as my Nashville re-issue is just as good. To be fair a few have played my re-issue and say mine is a particularly good one. Anywho, The 57 classics that are in it are great, but take a listen to Justins 335.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0hH3sMP2AQ

The intro is his 335 through a compressor and straight into the recording desk, and that's pretty much it, so that's about the cleanest recording of his guitar.

Then there is this song, from around 4:44



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBedAweB96Y

which shows some pretty clear tones up and down the string and neck, with I think some fuzz sound and sustainer. So the question is, with all the original PAFs sounding slightly different, and all the modern PAF variants sounding slightly different, which modern PAF do you guys think matches Justin's particular PAFs the closest?

 

[Funkfingers]

Re: Justin Hayward 335 tone

Welcome to the forum.

With the best will in the world, no amount of pickup jiggerypokery can compensate for fifty years of ageing of the wood.

A friend of mine has a 1962 or 63 ES-125 TCD. It looks wretched but sounds fabulous. Neck position P90 tone that you could play all day and never get bored.

 

[Chickenwings]

Re: Justin Hayward 335 tone

The 57 classics that are in it are great

Antiquities are probably the closest sounding set to that first recording to my ears, but honestly you could choose literally any of the vintage output pickups at random from Duncan whether they be the jazz set, APH's, 59s, seths, pearly gates etc and be amazed at the improvement over 57s. Dont forget that recordings have lots of their own colour too, for example the tonality of the compressor and the tonality of the mixing console itself as well as the tape used. There is nothing in the audio world that is truly flat frequency response. Not to mention how the signal got manipulated at the mixing stage and then final mastering. The reason im saying this is because when you try a certain set of pickups, you still might find that you want more of this or less of that due to the fact that a new pickup set interacts with the particular tonality of the wood in your individual guitar and also how they interact with your amplifier of choice.
So although ants might be the first choice, there might be other sets out there that suit you as an individual better. Its a PITA replacing pickups in a 335, but its worth going through the process a few times until you are 100% happy with your setup. If you are lucky you will get it first time tho.
If you do a pickup swap, spend a few extra bucks on replacing all the pots for 500k too.
Have you got a nice ross style compressor?

 

[Allanp]

Re: Justin Hayward 335 tone

Thank you very much for your quick and informative replies

Wow, your ears are really good. So you think the ants are closest? Can you even tell if his pickups are particularly high/low/hot? Now that would be impressive!

About the wood, yeah I am firmly in the camp of wood DOES make a big difference in tone. Maybe I need to try a few more vintage 335's as the ones I have tried so far are not that much superior to my own 2006 RI if at all. Maybe I dropped lucky with my particular 335, or maybe the ones I've tried are being sold for a reason, albeit for £10,000 plus. Due to being hand built some were great, but not all.

For a compressor I'm currently using a POD HD500x. There are a few compressor models and one of them sounds pretty close with some fiddling. With a little EQ, atmospheric delay and reverb (the usual things that would have been added to the mix) I'm almost there with the Blue guitar sound. There are times when you can't tell I'm playing over it, it just sounds like the original was turned up in the mix, but those moments are fleeting. Hopefully some ants or Seth Lovers will have a closer tonal response across the spectrum. I will look into a ross style compressor. I really do like a compressor and my guitar really seems to like it too.

When you say replace all the pots, do you mean both tone and volume pots? Is 500k the value found in 63 era 335's? My guitar is in the repair shop right now due to a faulty pot so now would be a great time to change them.

 

[Allanp]

Re: Justin Hayward 335 tone

One more thing about the age of the wood. It might be worth noting that when those recording were made, the guitar was around 12-15 years old, so only 4-7 year older than mine.

 

[Chickenwings]

Re: Justin Hayward 335 tone

Can you even tell if his pickups are particularly high/low/hot? Now that would be impressive!

It just sounds like a regular PAF to me. Its quite spongy and relaxed sounding which may be a result of the compressor, but definitely nothing unusual. Pafs with a2's have that spongy vibe.

Maybe I need to try a few more vintage 335's

Nah. If you like your guitar you like your guitar. It comes down to finding the pickups that bring out the best in your axe.

When you say replace all the pots, do you mean both tone and volume pots? Is 500k the value found in 63 era 335's? My guitar is in the repair shop right now due to a faulty pot so now would be a great time to change them.

Gibson use 300k pots which rolls off the highs a little. HUmbuckers of all types generally sound best with 500k pots. So yeah replace them all. Getting one pot out of a 335 means pulling the pickups and everything out and its a time consuming process. Might as well do the pickup swap while hes working on it.

fwiw i have an 06 dot reissue as my main axe. Ive has a bunch of pickups in it but my favourites are the whole lotta humbucker set. Its a different sound to what you are looking for i think tho. Stick with ants or seths.

 

[blueman335]

Re: Justin Hayward 335 tone

- You could choose literally any of the vintage output pickups at random from Duncan whether they be the jazz set, APH's, 59s, seths, pearly gates etc and be amazed at the improvement over 57s.

- Its a PITA replacing pickups in a 335

- +1. Any of those Duncans sound better then '57's, which are basically something Gibson came up with so they wouldn't have to pay someone else to make them. Duncan's only able to sell PU's when they sound better than stock ones.

- It's easy to change PU's/rewire 335's. I've done it 30 or 40 times in various F holes guitars. I use a stiff plastic coated wire to pull the neck tone pot back in place, and a 6" forceps for the other pots. Takes me 5 to 10 minutes. No big deal. Some guys use aquarium tubing. You'll want to test it thru an amp before you reassemble, and again after getting the pots back in place (but before tightening and putting knobs back on). Also, if changing pots give an extra 2 or 3" of wire between pots so nothing gets pulled too tight on re-entry.

 

[Allanp]

Re: Justin Hayward 335 tone

Thanks for all the great info guys. Nice to see a friendly and active forum.

So, replace pots with 500K (I think that's what all vintage gibsons came with. Trying to find that seeming basic info has been not easy!) and either Seths or Ants. Righto!

 

[GuitarDoc]

Re: Justin Hayward 335 tone

I find it interesting that you said that with your current guitar, pups, amp, setup, you have at times nailed the sound of Justin's guitar..you can't hear any difference. So you are talking about minuscule tone differences from time to time.

Here's the thing...your equipment doesn't change. The only variable in the equation is your technique. So, why are you looking for new equipment (pups) to replace the equipment that you admit already gets what you want?! The fact that you don't sound exactly like Justin all the time has to do with you, not the pups. Also keep in mind that the environment (place you are playing) can have a greater affect on your tone than a pup change.

I quite often agree with Blueman335 and Gibson175, but I have to disagree with their characterization of the Classic '57 that any vintage SD pup sounds "better". That's like saying any of the high output pups sound better than a Jazz. "Better" for WHAT? If what you want is a warm sounding pup with lots of mids and a soft ("spongy") low end with some bluesy breakup/growl, you can't do much "better" than a '57! If you want a pristine clean tone, you can't do much "better" than a Jazz.

For the tones you are trying to get out of your pups, you can't do much "better" than with what you've got. Changing the pots to 500k will give you a little more high-end brightness and clarity...something I agree sounds good with the '57s (unless you want a darker tone...then going to 500k pots is not a good idea).

 

[blueman335]

Re: Justin Hayward 335 tone

I
I have to disagree with their characterization of the Classic '57 that any vintage SD pup sounds "better"...If what you want is a warm sounding pup with lots of mids and a soft ("spongy") low end with some bluesy breakup/growl, you can't do much "better" than a '57!

For the tones you are trying to get out of your pups, you can't do much "better" than with what you've got.

Duncan PAF's have noticeably better tones; '57's aren't in the same league. I've sold the two sets of '57's I've had. Dull high end, blurry tone. No point in having them in a guitar when I can have better PAF's from Duncan, Fralin, Smits, DiMarzio, & even Gibson (BB's). Seymour knows how to wind a PU to get the most out of A2's; how to emphasize their strengths and minimize their weaknesses. There's a personal passion there that shows. '57's are an example of a lackluster match of wind and magnet from a bureaucracy that doesn't always care like it should (the same company that created the bizarre pairing of 498T and 490R). I don't think any aftermarket PU maker would put out a model that sounded like '57's.

 

[GuitarDoc]

Re: Justin Hayward 335 tone

See, this was what I was saying...it is a personal preference, it's the use of a comparative adjective ("better"). I know that YOU don't like the '57. That's fine, no problem. And if you say that you like every other pup other than a '57, that's fine. But to say..."Duncan PAF's have noticeably "better" tones"...without defining the relationship that the use of that word demands is not fine. "Better" for what? "Better" because you like SD PAF's more than '57s? "Better" for clarity? "Better" reproduction of a true PAF tone?

Some people love the tone and response of a '57 and nothing could be better for their needs/wants.

You love the tone of Duncan PAF's and nothing could be better for your needs (or, rather, anything other than a '57 would be "better" for your needs).

That's all I'm saying.

I have to admit that I also fall into that judgmental trap of saying that something is "better" than something else. But I usually try to qualify it saying why or for what application it is better.

 

[blueman335]

Re: Justin Hayward 335 tone

it is a personal preference ...without defining the relationship that the use of that word demands is not fine.

Some people love the tone and response of a '57 and nothing could be better for their needs/wants.

'Better' as in a richer sound, more dynamics, more clarity & definition. That makes for better tones, along with not being muddy or having a dull high end.

In my experience, many of the guys here (but not all) who love '57's usually don't have experience with other PAF's. I don't really put much faith in that view until they've tried some other makes and models of PAF's. If they feel the same after that and still prefer '57's, then that carries a lot more weight. I don't see how anyone could put Seth's, WLH's, or A2P's in their guitar, and think '57's had better tone. Seymour has a whole line of PAF's, and a good number of those end up in Gibsons. All the average player knows about the PU's in his guitar is that they're 'the stock ones'. '57's may be the best PAF he's owned, but if they're the only PAF he's owned, he hasn't seen much.

 

[Allanp]

Re: Justin Hayward 335 tone

My guitar's tone sounds closer in some parts of the blue guitar intro than it does in others. My thinking is that different PUP's respond to different frequencies in slightly different ways, sort of like two frequency response curves of a slightly different shape that overlaps somewhere. I could be wrong though. I guess I will just have to try them. As for technique, that is something that has always fascinated me. You get Slash playing Justin's guitar, he won't sound like Justin. Whilst I know this to be true, I'm not sure how. Would be a cool experiment to mount a slow-mo camera to a guitar neck and film two legends play the exact same thing note for note, fret for fret, to see what the actual differences are, or maybe it's best left an illusion

 

[GuitarDoc]

Re: Justin Hayward 335 tone

'Better' as in a richer sound, more dynamics, more clarity & definition. That makes for better tones, along with not being muddy or having a dull high end.

In my experience, many of the guys here (but not all) who love '57's usually don't have experience with other PAF's. I don't really put much faith in that view until they've tried some other makes and models of PAF's. If they feel the same after that and still prefer '57's, then that carries a lot more weight. I don't see how anyone could put Seth's, WLH's, or A2P's in their guitar, and think '57's had better tone. Seymour has a whole line of PAF's, and a good number of those end up in Gibsons. All the average player knows about the PU's in his guitar is that they're 'the stock ones'. '57's may be the best PAF he's owned, but if they're the only PAF he's owned, he hasn't seen much.

Well, you know that I have tried lots of pups, mostly SD, and I'd say the '57s are certainly different (esp different from the '59). But I'm still hesitant to make a blanket generalized statement that the '59 is "better" than the '57. Yes the '59 has more clarity and definition than the '57. Is the '57 "muddier" sounding than the '59? Well, maybe...maybe it's just bluesier sounding. (Is the Fender Blues Jr "muddier" sounding than a Roland JC120? Well, yes, but maybe it's just "bluesier" sounding). Many guitar players throughout history have done lots of weird things to their amps to get that "muddy" sound because it was "better" than a pristine clean sound.

I personally think that the '57 has a much richer sound than the '59 due to its mids, and that it is also more dynamic (alnico 2 vs alnico 5 magnet). Is this "better" or just my personal preference?!

Now here's a twist...I think that any SD pup is better than the old (up to 3 or 4 years ago) Epi stock pups. Because in any category that a pup is used for, the SD will outperform the Epi.

And I totally agree with what you said about the average player and his lack of experience.

 

[Allanp]

Re: Justin Hayward 335 tone

I think for the purpose of this thread, better means the tone of Justin's guitar. To me, that's perfection. Sure, my own playing will factor into it but you get what I mean.

 

[blueman335]

Re: Justin Hayward 335 tone

. Is the '57 "muddier" sounding than the '59? Well, maybe...maybe it's just bluesier sounding.

We're not really comparing '59's to '57's for the purposes of this thread. I mentioned Seth's, WLH's, and A2P's as specific examples of Duncan's superior PAF tones. Those take PU winding to the next level. As a PAF fan and blues player, I find all three of them much 'bluesier sounding' than '57's. I'm not sure on what kind of comparison would be needed where '57's came out on top. There's too many great winders making PAF's these days to settle for '57's. If you can't find a better sounding PAF that that, you're not looking.

I think the OP's more likely to get the tones he wants from a Duncan PAF than the '57's he has now.