Keys for the most unique Les Paul "middle position" quack sound

[Humbucker]

Sometimes the both-pickups-on position for a dual humbucker guitar like a Les Paul just sounds like a fatter version of the bridge pickup. Other times, it has a unique quack sound quite different from either pickup alone that is somewhat analogous to the position 2 or 4 sounds on a Strat. Examples I can think of are Jimmy Page's mid-70s live tone or John Fogerty's "Bad Moon Rising" sound.

What sort of pickup pairing maximizes the type of frequency interaction that produces quackiness? Would you want both pickups to be more similar or more different in tonal characteristics? I.e. would a pair of identical pickups yield the most quack or a pair of very different pickups?

 

[stevie_bees]

Re: Keys for the most unique Les Paul "middle position" quack sound

I would say it's more than likely the two pickups being out of phase with each other that gives that tone.


Sent from my TARDIS using timey-wimey talk.

 

[AlexR]

Re: Keys for the most unique Les Paul "middle position" quack sound

^ Not really.

I mean the OOP tone has a portion of the quack as part of its inherent tone. Quack is a cancellation like OOP, but it is 'in phase cancellation'.

That middle position tone is a really hard one to know what its going to be like just reading specs. I have some great sets that give a really pronounced effect and there is not yet a formula or even a trend that I can say is best in terms of pickup strength/height/tonality.

I have a humbucker sized P90 set that is great, a full on PAF clone set that has beautiful middle posi.

I guess that, for the guitar they are in, they have to have a tonality that gives a similar volume and complementary tone......so you get that nice mix of the two.......remember volume pot play can also be key here.

 

[Funkfingers]

Re: Keys for the most unique Les Paul "middle position" quack sound

The same things could be said about the neck + bridge pickup combination on a Telecaster. Markedly different pickup specifications. The influence of the hardware. Personal choices concerning string gauge and action height.

Then, of course, there is the contribution of the amplification.

All of the different resonances contribute to the overall sound.

 

[JeffB]

Re: Keys for the most unique Les Paul "middle position" quack sound

Its easy to get that pagey quack sound if you have the right pickups and wiring...

50s wiring..

T top type in bridge
Asymetrical wound paf type of higher output (than bridge) in neck

Its the combo of those two very different pickups....ive done it in my trad with rewind t top and gibson 59tribute lead pickup stuck in the neck. Thennits simply a matter of working volumes and tones

 

[Funkfingers]

Re: Keys for the most unique Les Paul "middle position" quack sound

Since we are discussing Page "tribute" pickups and circuitry, has anyone here A/B tested the SD Whole Lotta Humbucker pair against, say, the Bare Knuckle Pickups Black Dog pair?

 

[dotsdad]

Re: Keys for the most unique Les Paul "middle position" quack sound

The Greenie Custom Shop set has a flipped magnet for max quack. You can always try that as a free and interesting experiment

 

[LtKojak]

Re: Keys for the most unique Les Paul "middle position" quack sound

To get the right "quack" (that's the term for single-coils; in HBs it's actually called "chirp", or at least that's how I learned the used terms), it's all about the p'ups' setup.

Really.

 

[Zhangliqun]

Re: Keys for the most unique Les Paul "middle position" quack sound

I'm with the loootenant. I don't call the bridge+neck tone "quack", that's strictly the domain of 3-pickup guitars in the #2 and #4 positions (though I call the neck+middle tone "cluck"). I call the Pagey/BB King middle tone "chirp" too -- yes, I know Page gets a bunch of other middle tones playing with the volume pots, but when all 4 pots are dimed, that's chirp.

I think the main chirp killer is a muddy neck pu and/or a bridge pu that is a bit weak compared to the neck, usually both. This is a VERY common problem with vintage clone humbucker sets that not only prevents righteous chirp but creates EQ balance and output balance nightmares. (I regularly solve this problem for customers because I personally must have that chirp so I make my buckers accordingly.) It can be helped some by adjusting the relative height of the pickups (bridge higher/neck lower) and by raising the screws on the neck bucker and lowering the pickup the same amount, but if the match is bad, it will never be all that great.

 

[hydro]

Re: Keys for the most unique Les Paul "middle position" quack sound

I was after that sound in my ES-335 and got it with Whole Lotta Humbuckers and an out-of-phase push pull pot (and 50s wiring). You get great sensitivity of quackery in a range of about 7-9 on the neck volume pot with all other controls dimed.

Not disagreeing with others who say the OOP mod is not essential, cause I have got that tone on other guitars that are in phase, but it definitely enhances it in my opinion.

 

[astrozombie]

Re: Keys for the most unique Les Paul "middle position" quack sound

On my les Paul, all I do is switch the switch to the middle position.

seriously.

i have gibson burstbuckers, theyre both like 1/16 of an inch away from the strings and thats it.

it is nice and thin, reminds me of a strat.

 

[Chickenwings]

Re: Keys for the most unique Les Paul "middle position" quack sound

Its all about the amp.

 

[Humbucker]

Re: Keys for the most unique Les Paul "middle position" quack sound

Thanks for all the responses so far.

I'm after the tone you get without phase reversal judging by how the players I like who have that chirpy sound seem to mostly use a standard wired set of PAF type humbuckers. I've played around with phase reversal and the thinned out cocked wah thing isn't quite what I'm looking for.

Steve Howe's got it pretty good here (2:07), though I'd want a little more top end:

https://youtu.be/Hp7mKKLbws8?t=127

And of course Page has it going on all the time (6:09):

https://youtu.be/tK1p4ZaTM10?t=369

 

[Zhangliqun]

Re: Keys for the most unique Les Paul "middle position" quack sound

The proper chirp is not an out of phase tone. You should be able to get it in phase effortlessly or something's just not quite right about the pickups, adjustment, maybe the harness, etc.

 

[Humbucker]

Re: Keys for the most unique Les Paul "middle position" quack sound

Agreed!

 

[eclecticsynergy]

Re: Keys for the most unique Les Paul "middle position" quack sound

IMO a big part of it is the disparity between the two pickups (both levelwise and tonewise). I feel another factor is having pickups that are not too beefy. A neck humbucker will always give you a fair amount of low end, even when it's a tight sounding one rather than loose. Combine that with a hot bridge pickup that delivers lots of lows, and the high-mid/lower treble range where the essence of that tone lives can easily be overshadowed. A pair of fat sounding pickups makes the chirp much harder to find, especially since this sound seems to be at its best when both are dimed.

I agree adjustment is important. Photos from the 70s often show Page's neck PAF set quite low, nearly flush with the mounting ring. And it's not a particularly loud pickup to begin with. His bridge pickup during that period was a T-top, I think- a bit hotter that the PAF but more importantly crisper and tighter.

Gain enters into it also- too much and the tone fills out enough to cloud the chirpiness, also compression will detract from the almost-singlecoiliness of the pick attack that's an important part of this sound. IMO that's why it's easier to achieve using humbuckers that don't push the amp too hard.

 

[AlexR]

Re: Keys for the most unique Les Paul "middle position" quack sound

^ No, page's neck pickup was a 'hot' one for PAF specs......8.5 K or so according to all reports. It was stronger than his bridge PAF which I think most say was about 8k. The T-top of course was a bit weaker again, most likely 7.5-7.8k is pretty usual.

 

[freefrog]

Re: Keys for the most unique Les Paul "middle position" quack sound

SIDE NOTE - I wonder how a Donahue Half OOP wiring would succeed to change the "chirp" in "quack". I've wired a Tele with such a thing on a push pull tone pot and with a 4,7n cap, this wiring delivers a reasonable emulation of 2d and 4th Strat positions. Maybe a lower value cap would do the job with humbuckers?

 

[ItsaBass]

Re: Keys for the most unique Les Paul "middle position" quack sound

I have never heard any two pickups in parallel with each other sound "fatter" than either one of them alone. The in-between position on a Les Paul (or a Tele, Strat, and so on) is always a more thin and hollow sound than the bridge pickup (assuming "normal" LP switching options).

"Quack," IME, really comes from e.q. shaping. It seems to happen when certain range of frequencies that would normally be there are tamped down significantly (or audibly eliminated). I think this must happen with parallel pickups because of the ways in which the two signals "mix" with each other. You've got two pickups being driven by the same string frequencies, but each pickup with a different e.q. and output. As a result, some tones get tamped down by the combination of the signals, while others get boosted (not to mention the drop in total output due to the pickups being in parallel). The result is that you end up with some "odd" peaks and valleys in your e.q., along with the drop in volume. This is a lame way of describing it, but I just don't have the electronics knowhow to explain it more technically. But IME, the bottom line is that it really comes down to trial and error, not to mention the subjectivity of what constitutes "good quack" or "bad quack." Some pickups are gonna sound nice together in parallel, and some aren't. You have to just try to find out. It's kind of beyond feasibility to actually predict the exact character of the quack.

 

[Mincer]

Re: Keys for the most unique Les Paul "middle position" quack sound

I didn't know people liked that sound!
I think it is a certain balance with certain pickups, although I have never heard it with 24 fret guitars, so location probably has something to do with it. I always put it down to improperly balanced pickups- I always balance the pickups until that sound goes away.