Lackluster tone: Bad piece of wood vs. other components

posite63

posite63

New member
Hi guys,

I'm having a bit of dilemma with one of my guitars. Here's the background: I own 3 Schecter Gryphons (mahogany w/ thin maple cap, bolt on maple neck, 25.5 scale, the usual). I had done some pickup experimenting and ended up with some hybrid Duncan Designed 102/103 w/ A8 magnets in all 3 of the guitars. I have them tuned to A#, B and C.

The A# and C are great instruments, they really sing. But the axe in B sounds kinda lifeless. It lacks the personality that the other two have. I'm aware that a bad piece of wood can really dampen a guitar's natural resonance, and I'm guessing that's what's happening here. I've played all 3 unplugged, knocked on the body (crazy how the resonant peaks are so DIFFERENT, even on the same model of guitar), etc., and am leaning towards this being the case. So here are my questions:

1. How can I definitely conclude that it's the wood at fault and not another component? I'd hate to move forward with this assumption and miss out on the proper solution.

2. Assuming that it is the wood, what are some definite ways to help liven the tone? I'm kinda sick of pickup swapping at the moment, but I'll do it again if it helps. I've also heard a bone nut is very helpful, and I'm wondering if brighter strings will help much (currently using Everly X Rockers 12-60).

3. On the pickups, the A# has an HB103 screw coil, and an HB102 slug coil. It's tighter, more djenty. B and C are the opposite configuration and are more suited to rock. If I flipped the pickup in the B guitar, and perhaps swapped the screws and slugs, would that effectively make it similar to the A# pickup?

3. At what point would YOU stop trying to put lipstick on the pig and just move on to a new instrument?
 
Re: Lackluster tone: Bad piece of wood vs. other components

Check the setup, especially the string break angle over the bridge and nut, the action/relief and the quality of the nut/bridge string slots.

Ensure that both the nut and bridge are secured well with no play or wiggle. Same with the neck joint...make sure it's snug.

Check the pickup heights while you're at it and double-check the resistance readings, since you have obviously modified the pickups...make sure they match your others.

Another consideration would be checking/upgrading the pots and wiring. Very common source of "lifelessness", especially on those lower-mid level import instruments where quality control is good, but not perfect and the parts are a little "cheaper" overall.

If the setup is ideal, the hardware is attached correctly, the string slots are properly formed and clean of burrs/wear, the pots/wiring are in good shape and pickups are at their optimal height with the correct resistance and you're certain the magnet(s) inside is properly charged, then it may just be that particular guitar!
 
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Re: Lackluster tone: Bad piece of wood vs. other components

If you have identical components on all guitars, then you can say any difference is due to the chassis.
 
Re: Lackluster tone: Bad piece of wood vs. other components

Just to be sure, I'd swap the pickups between two of the guitars to make sure the suckage doesn't follow the pickups. But I'm just OCD that way.
 
Re: Lackluster tone: Bad piece of wood vs. other components

AlexR said:
If you have identical components on all guitars, then you can say any difference is due to the chassis.
Click to expand...

It's not that simple. There are several variables that must be ruled out before you can assume it's purely the wood.

Darg's right about trying one of the other pickups in that guitar...that's one more variable you can rule out. However, if the wiring or a pot is buggered or there's an issue with the setup or hardware fit, it can still seem lifeless

Nonetheless, I would definitely try swapping out the pickups. As I mentioned above, there could be an internal issue with the pickup, either wiring or even a difference in the gauss (charge) of the magnet. That's probably where I would start...see if the pickup from the A# or C sounds better in the B.
 
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Re: Lackluster tone: Bad piece of wood vs. other components

Wire the pickups straight to the jack, for a test.
You'll quickly know if a faulty pot is robbing you of anything.
 
Re: Lackluster tone: Bad piece of wood vs. other components

Neck shims can deaden the sound a bit.
 
Re: Lackluster tone: Bad piece of wood vs. other components

you say the pickups are hybrids
I assume you made them hybrids
if have one wired start end start end
you'll end up with one bland pickup

they need to be start end end start
or end start start end
 
Re: Lackluster tone: Bad piece of wood vs. other components

masta' c said:
Darg's right about trying one of the other pickups in that guitar...that's one more variable you can rule out. However, if the wiring or a pot is buggered or there's an issue with the setup or hardware fit, it can still seem lifeless

Nonetheless, I would definitely try swapping out the pickups. As I mentioned above, there could be an internal issue with the pickup, either wiring or even a difference in the gauss (charge) of the magnet. That's probably where I would start...see if the pickup from the A# or C sounds better in the B.
Click to expand...
Thank you for your comments, I will definitely inspect the innards a little closer, as well as the setup. I did all the setup on these so I know they're at least consistent. This is why I'm worried it's the wood.

I have often wondered how common a dud pickup is. I don't think the wiring is wrong, I get plenty of output and no funny phasing sounds. So I'm ruling out botched wiring, but do some pickups just sound better than others?

Here's a the only recorded material I have using this guitar, you'll see that it sounds just fine (no obvious problems). (Also, I'm very much an amateur, so this is not a great recording)
https://youtu.be/nYXIuRxhycc
 
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Re: Lackluster tone: Bad piece of wood vs. other components

ehdwuld said:
you say the pickups are hybrids
I assume you made them hybrids
if have one wired start end start end
you'll end up with one bland pickup

they need to be start end end start
or end start start end
Click to expand...
I tried to keep the wires in order during the transplant. Maybe it's a possibility, but I'm fairly certain it's not the wiring. Check the video above for how the guitar sounds.
 
Re: Lackluster tone: Bad piece of wood vs. other components

posite63 said:
I've also heard a bone nut is very helpful
Click to expand...

If the stock nut is hollow plastic, the sound and resonance can surely be improved. If it's solid plastic, changing the nut won't improve sound much, just change it. Options include, plastic, graph tech, micarta. A nut made out of a slab of good material will resonate better than a hollow one. Bone is the worst material to use for a nut.
 
Re: Lackluster tone: Bad piece of wood vs. other components

Clint 55 said:
If the stock nut is hollow plastic, the sound and resonance can surely be improved. If it's solid plastic, changing the nut won't improve sound much, just change it. Options include, plastic, graph tech, micarta. A nut made out of a slab of good material will resonate better than a hollow one. Bone is the worst material to use for a nut.
Click to expand...

I believe it is a graph tech. It's definitely not plastic or hollow.
 
Re: Lackluster tone: Bad piece of wood vs. other components

It's very common for two guitars of the same make and model to sound and feel different. Trust me, I have 11 G&L Legacys, all set up as closely as I can get them. Some have maple necks, some rosewood; some alder, some ash. These differences are audible, of course. Yet there are audible differences between IDENTICAL guitar sets. It's a fact of life.

Even with my Les Pauls and 335s there are differences. (Keep in mind that it is much more difficult to get them set up identically; a major factor is the set-neck). I have three 335s...all different. I have two Supremes, two 1960 Classics, two Classic Antiques, and two IDENTICAL Historics...and each guitar sounds different from its sibling.

All you can do is to make sure you are comparing apples to apples, as they say. Make sure that your setups are the same: bridge heights, frets, nut action, neck angle, etc. Pickup resistance, electronic specs...make them all the same. Make sure your bridge posts are seated firmly with no wobble. Only after you're gone thru these parameters can you say with any certainty that it's a case of bad wood.

Some guitars are special, and some aren't.




Clint 55 said:
If the stock nut is hollow plastic, the sound and resonance can surely be improved. If it's solid plastic, changing the nut won't improve sound much, just change it. Options include, plastic, graph tech, micarta. A nut made out of a slab of good material will resonate better than a hollow one. Bone is the worst material to use for a nut.
Click to expand...

I could not disagree more with this statement. Bone is clearly one of the BEST materials available for making nuts, and most major manufacturers would agree. Having exchanged TUSQ, corian, micarta, plastic and brass nuts for bone on several guitars, I can state that bone has ALWAYS made an improvement in tone. But, the bone material has to be selected for high quality, properly installed and expertly slotted. There are reasons that a manufacturer will choose one material over another; usually cost considerations are paramount. TUSQ and graphite have their place in certain applications. I have them on several of my vibrato-equiped guitars, but I prefer bone.

Personally I have have less than stellar results with brass, aluminum, steel, plastic, corian, Micarta, delrin...and bone would certainly be my first choice over all of them.

Bill
 
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Re: Lackluster tone: Bad piece of wood vs. other components

Boogie Bill said:
Make sure that your setups are the same: bridge heights, frets, nut action, neck angle, etc. Pickup resistance, electronic specs...make them all the same. Make sure your bridge posts are seated firmly with no wobble. Only after you're gone thru these parameters can you say with any certainty that it's a case of bad wood.

Some guitars are special, and some aren't.
Bill
Click to expand...

Thank you for your insight. Based on all the recommendations, it sounds like I need to give the guitar a really thorough inspection tonight. I've got my fingers crossed that I can make some improvements, I really hope this one does not fall in to that "not special" category.
 
Re: Lackluster tone: Bad piece of wood vs. other components

Boogie Bill said:
Bone is clearly one of the BEST materials available for making nuts
Click to expand...

I have no idea why people regard bone as such quality material for a nut. The times I've tried bone it sounded like my guitar had turned into an oil can guitar. Plinkity Plunkity no bass, no treble, no tone period. A solid piece of plastic is my favorite. Resonates, has bass, treble, balanced, nothing fishy going on in the mids. I don't get bone.
 
Re: Lackluster tone: Bad piece of wood vs. other components

There is a reason most of your favorite guitarists hand pick their guitars from the factory.

I went through this with my favorite body style (RG) and a bunch of different guitars. For me, changing pickups never made a bad sounding guitar good. I can't speak for anyone else but pickups do make a difference, just not life changing.

This is a tough call, we're not all rich and famous, it's not easy to pick from the litter so to speak.
 
Re: Lackluster tone: Bad piece of wood vs. other components

Clint 55 said:
I have no idea why people regard bone as such quality material for a nut. The times I've tried bone it sounded like my guitar had turned into an oil can guitar. Plinkity Plunkity no bass, no treble, no tone period. A solid piece of plastic is my favorite. Resonates, has bass, treble, balanced, nothing fishy going on in the mids. I don't get bone.
Click to expand...

My guess is that it is super easy to work with and it is cheap. My favorite is TUSQ or Graph-Tech XL. It is a warmer sound I like. But if I had my choice, zero frets everywhere.
 
Re: Lackluster tone: Bad piece of wood vs. other components

If the guitars have identical hardware, try swapping bridges between them and see if the suck follows that. A poorly milled tuneomatic where the saddles aren't seated firmly in the base, or they're not making consistent contact due to a manufacturing burr or thick plating, will not pass as much string vibration to the body for that resonance that defines a guitar's character.

I had a USA Jackson (one of several) that was dead both acoustically and amplified. New strings, pickups were not bjorked, pots were good. It just sounded like I had tape-wound strings on it. After I sold it, I thought maybe the bridge (Schaller JT590) was to blame, but the guy I sold it to said it was bright and lively, so there ya go.
 
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