Learned something new about treble bleed caps yesterday...

[Lewguitar]

Learned that I really need one...so I installed a 180 pf cap in my orange Custom 22 this morning.

I have two CU22’s....one blue and one Gretsch orange.

I have Antiquity humbuckers in both (the Dragons seemed a bit bland...) but my blue CU22 has the original pots and original 180 pf bright cap.

I replaced the pots in my orange PRS and didn’t add the bright cap.

Did a lot of playing yesterday and with volume turned down to 6 on my blue PRS I was able to get an almost acoustic sound. Very clear and airy sounding.

But when I played the same way on my orange PRS (without the bright cap) it sounded muddy.

So this morning I put a 180 pf silver mica cap in my orange PRS and now it sounds as good as my blue one when I turn the volume down to 5 or 6 and play chords.

I also think that cap is a big part of the PRS sound. PRS puts it in the SE’s and I believe all of their guitars.

Makes a much bigger difference than I previously thought.

 

[gregory]

Re: Learned something new about treble bleed caps yesterday...

The difference can be significant depending on the cap you use. You can also use a resistor in parallel with the cap in order to maintain more body as you roll the volume back. The output impedance plays a role, so what works well with one pickup might not work as well with another.

They work great with single coils. As an example you could use one to thin out an SSL-1 in order to get it to sound more like a single coil you might find in a '70s Strat if you should ever want to do such a thing. Alternatively you could use one with an SSL-5 to get it closer to an SSL-1, though you'll probably be more successful drawing blood from a stone if you hope to make the SSL-5 sound as glassy as an SSL-1.

 

[Chistopher]

Re: Learned something new about treble bleed caps yesterday...

A resistor in series also helps make the treble bleed more transparent and it doesn't affect the pot taper. Using a resistor in parallel takes a linear pot more logarithmic, which may or may not be desirable based upon your preferences.

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: Learned something new about treble bleed caps yesterday...

PRS uses no resister. Just a small cap...180 pf.

Sounds great.

 

[gregory]

Re: Learned something new about treble bleed caps yesterday...

They're great with overdrive...

More about it here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Dy34fl8sk4&t=122
(2:02 in if the link doesn't take you there directly)

 

[gregory]

Re: Learned something new about treble bleed caps yesterday...

Another really good example:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8isoHVY0Tk&feature=youtu.be&t=58

 

[jeremy]

Re: Learned something new about treble bleed caps yesterday...

any reason i couldnt put a treble bleed on a switch? sometimes i want to retain the high end as i turn down but sometimes i dont and having tried it both ways, im happier without one than with but it would be a nice option to have

 

[gregory]

Re: Learned something new about treble bleed caps yesterday...

Insert a switch between one leg of the volume control and the portion of the bleed connected to it. Satriani does this.

If you use a master tone or connect the tone controls that are normally connected to a standard 5-way directly to the pickups, then you can use the second pole of the 5-way to select the treble bleed (leave the other end of the treble bleed connected to the output of the volume control). You could only engage the treble bleed in positions where the neck pickup is active, for example.

 

[jeremy]

Re: Learned something new about treble bleed caps yesterday...

i hate having p/p on the volume pot so id want a p/p tone control to turn the treble bleed on and off and i worry about running the signal though the extra wire which is why i havent done it

 

[Chistopher]

Re: Learned something new about treble bleed caps yesterday...

If you connect the treble bleed from the first lug of the volume to the unused lug on the tone control, it'll fade the treble bleed out as you turn down the tone.

 

[gregory]

Re: Learned something new about treble bleed caps yesterday...

Check my edit where I added the part about a standard 5-way, if that helps any. I don't think running the extra wire will be an issue. It isn't a large amount compared to the rest of the wire used to deliver your signal from the pickup to the output jack.

 

[blueman335]

Re: Learned something new about treble bleed caps yesterday...

I started using the Kinman treble bleed and am making that standard on my guitars now. I've always hated losing high-end when I roll down the volume.

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: Learned something new about treble bleed caps yesterday...

I’m pretty picky about my sound, but I’ve really gotten used to the sound of my PRS guitars with just a simple 180 pf. cap across the volume pot. Works well with humbuckers.

I went years without one on my ‘95 CU22, but really missed it when I was doing some low volume open tuning stuff. I was working out Norwegian Wood and the guitar with the bright cap had an acoustic quality that my guitar without it lacked.

So I installed the missing cap and got that sound back.

 

[Joey Voltage]

Re: Learned something new about treble bleed caps yesterday...

A resistor in series also helps make the treble bleed more transparent and it doesn't affect the pot taper. Using a resistor in parallel takes a linear pot more logarithmic, which may or may not be desirable based upon your preferences.

A resistor in series mostly just retards the effect by making the network have a set minimum impedance at all frequencies, making it not as drastic. It’s a good way to tame the combo if you find it a little too peaky.

The resistor in parallel doesn’t really hurt the taper much, you would need a magnitude of 5/1 - 10/1 to turn a linear pot into one that resembles a log pot, and even then it’s not a direct comparison. It’s usually done to keep the frequency peak more consistent when the pot is turned down lower.

 

[gimmieinfo]

Re: Learned something new about treble bleed caps yesterday...

any reason i couldnt put a treble bleed on a switch? sometimes i want to retain the high end as i turn down but sometimes i dont and having tried it both ways, im happier without one than with but it would be a nice option to have

Sure, but what I do, and it won't work 4 u if you cant spare a pot, but i use a tone pot and wire it so i can vary the effect of the bleed cap. This way you don't have to go from one extreme to the next, but u can find just the right amount. Of course you may not be able to spare a pot. On a tele you'd have to go without a tone pot obviously, but on any guitar with more then one tone pot you could make one a master tone and the other a variable treble bleed.

 

[GuitarDoc]

Re: Learned something new about treble bleed caps yesterday...

This thread and a couple others that I have read got me to thinking about the many variations of treble bleed mods. I have used a pretty standard version of the Duncan TB (cap and resister in parallel) but have liked the Kinman TB better (cap and resister in series) and have used it alot. So yesterday I spent a good deal of time (way too much) trying different cap and resister values. The results were obtained from my ears and not from any scopes or electronic theory, so this is MY opinion only.

I made a jig that had 3 caps (.001uf, .01uf, .10uf) connected to several different resisters (100k, 151k, 220k, 300k, 410k). I could select between any combination of cap and resister in series (Kinman TB type), or separately (Simple TB type). The results were very interesting and not what I expected. I used this on a LP type guitar (HH) and tried it on both the bridge and neck buckers.

Using the .01uf cap by itself gave the most appealing tone throughout the vol pot sweep, but there was very little tone OR volume difference until I got down to about 4 or 5. Not good if you want some control over volume near the 7-10 range of your pot, which I DO. The typical Kinman values of .001uf and 130k ohms are said to be best for single coils using 250k pots. Reviews that I have read suggest using a resister that is approximately half the value of the vol pot (range of 150k - 300k for humbuckers with 500k vol pot).

I found that even with my 500k vol pot, the 100k-151k resister sounded best. The 220k - 300k gave a "smoother" but less dramatic response. I found that for me, the best treble bleed was the Simple TB (cap only) using a 100uf cap. It retained all of the highs and upper mids as I rolled the vol down and kept the tone sounding the same all the way to zero vol. Just what I wanted.

So if any of you want to try this yourselves, I have LOTS of resisters, 30 different values from 10 ohms up to 1 meg ohm. I will be happy to send some to you (free) if you PM me with your address. I don't have any caps to spare, you'll need to get what you want on your own, but I would suggest only using values between .0005uf - .010uf (and .010 is really way too high, .005uf is probably high enough).

 

[Chistopher]

Re: Learned something new about treble bleed caps yesterday...

Interesting, I've heard so many reviews of the simple treble bleed saying that it was more or less of the devil that I've never actually given it a thought. I might have to try it out now.

Also, could you expand a bit more on what you mean when you described the differences you've experienced with different resistor values with humbuckers?

 

[gimmieinfo]

Re: Learned something new about treble bleed caps yesterday...

I made a jig that had 3 caps (.001uf, .01uf, .10uf) connected to several different resisters (100k, 151k, 220k, 300k, 410k). I could select between any combination of cap and resister in series (Kinman TB type), or separately (Simple TB type). The results were very interesting and not what I expected. I used this on a LP type guitar (HH) and tried it on both the bridge and neck buckers..

The .001uf/1000pf is fine, but thats about the biggest cap u ever wanna use for a treble bleed. The .01 and .1uf are FAR too big. I can't emphasize the word FAR enough. They will pass almost the entire freq spectrum of guitar which is almost the same as shorting the pot's input and output lugs together, essential turning the volume pot from a voltage divider to nothing more then a load pot ! If you wires the switch directly to the out jack and took the volume pot and left the one side grounded and soldered the middle to the hot of the jack, thats a load pot. All you are doing is grounding the signal by the varying degrees of the pot and theres no resistance between the out jack and the signal. The only thing that keeps what u r doing from being exactly that is that those caps do block a little bit of the very lowest frequencies. You have to understand how treble bleeds work, this is partially why so many negative reviews of them.

 

[GuitarDoc]

Re: Learned something new about treble bleed caps yesterday...

The .001uf/1000pf is fine, but thats about the biggest cap u ever wanna use for a treble bleed. The .01 and .1uf are FAR too big. I can't emphasize the word FAR enough. They will pass almost the entire freq spectrum of guitar which is almost the same as shorting the pot's input and output lugs together, essential turning the volume pot from a voltage divider to nothing more then a load pot ! If you wires the switch directly to the out jack and took the volume pot and left the one side grounded and soldered the middle to the hot of the jack, thats a load pot. All you are doing is grounding the signal by the varying degrees of the pot and theres no resistance between the out jack and the signal. The only thing that keeps what u r doing from being exactly that is that those caps do block a little bit of the very lowest frequencies. You have to understand how treble bleeds work, this is partially why so many negative reviews of them.

That makes sense given my findings and it's exactly what happened...the .01uf cap passed along almost the entire tonal spectrum. If I had smaller values for the caps, I would have tried them. In fact, maybe I'll try to find some and try the experiment over with them.

Thanks for that info.

 

[gimmieinfo]

Re: Learned something new about treble bleed caps yesterday...

That makes sense given my findings and it's exactly what happened...the .01uf cap passed along almost the entire tonal spectrum. If I had smaller values for the caps, I would have tried them. In fact, maybe I'll try to find some and try the experiment over with them.

Thanks for that info.

And the .1uf would for all intents and purposes pass the entire signal. What it didn't would be negligible to the human ear and i doubt shrting the in/out lugs together would sound any different than using a .1uf.