Little watt vs. BIG watt. Mesa Boogie and everyone else.

[SirJackdeFuzz]

Hi guys (and girls ?) . . . here is a legit question.

I do not want to this to end up in a ''bigger is better'', or ''smaller is more practical'' flaming debate.

I've been thinking the last year or so . . .



. . . with all these (seemingly hundreds of them) lower watt amps, are we gonna see a decline in the BIG amp (90/100/120's) options out there ?

With most folk mic'ing their amps no matter where they gig these days, we really do not ''need'' 120W monsters . . . are the manufactures gonna cut down on their BIG amp options ?

I know there are many people like me out there that LOVE their BIG amps, and i will forever love 'em, but i also know ''we'' are the minority, if you look at it from a sales point-of-view.

http://www.humbuckermusic.com/collections/mesa-mark-five-25/products/mesa-boogie-mark-five-25-head - $1400.00 - 25W

http://www.humbuckermusic.com/colle...ive-35/products/mesa-boogie-mark-five-35-head - $1600.00 - 35W

http://www.humbuckermusic.com/collections/mesa-mark-v-amps/products/mebomavhe - $2350.00 - 90W



So, my question is : are all these smaller amps ( ...more practical, some would argue) killing the progress and options on what will be available in the future of the BIG amps ?

 

[dave74]

Re: Little watt vs. BIG watt. Mesa Boogie and everyone else.

I'd say yes.

With the improving digital realm coupled with the improved selection of small amps, not to mention an economy that is still not expanding at the rate we're accustomed,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, yeah, I'd say the big tube-amp era is going to be hard-pressed to hold a sufficient sales-level that warrants so many model lines. IMO

Not so sure it will really stall development though, as there will always be a high-end market for innovative designs.

 

[beaubrummels]

Re: Little watt vs. BIG watt. Mesa Boogie and everyone else.

Music is in such decline as we've never seen the like of before. 'Tis it the death knell, perchance? With the invention of these new spinets and harpsichords that allow, dare I say it, the 'common man' to produce an utterly fatiguing semblance of what otherwise would be perceived as music, save the rigid sonority of these ghastly inferior devices, the only saving grace is their limited projection and volume. Where oh where should a true musician be able to enjoy the full range of a proper pianoforte? Ah, the concert hall - where the professional artist dwelleth. If only my patrons shall invest...


Yeah, that's a joke. But I bet this isn't the first time musicians grew concerned about equipment trends.

 

[HiFiRebel]

Re: Little watt vs. BIG watt. Mesa Boogie and everyone else.

I would say yes as well. When I stopped gigging with a 4x12, the sound guys stopped yelling at me. The trend has been in that direction for over fifiteen years now.

 

[Lake Placid Blues]

Re: Little watt vs. BIG watt. Mesa Boogie and everyone else.

To some extent it depends on what kind of music you play. A lot of lower wattage amps use EL84s which is okay for many players, but not me. I don't like most EL84 amps. I don't like that sound which most make. I like the bigger bottle tubes, and their sound, like EL34 and 6L6, and turned up a bit. That gives me limited options, especially considering that I also don't like full width (29.5") heads.

I won't buy a head wider than 25". A head that is 30" wide, 9" high, and weighs 50 pounds, is ridiculous in my opinion. I like the new mini (EVH 5153 50 watt, DSL15, Mini Jubilee....), and the traditional small box 50 watt plexi, head sizes.

A Twin Reverb size and weight in a combo is back breaking too. And in recent years we have seen over sized 1x12 combos that are virtually the size and weight of a Bluesbreaker combo. That's too big and heavy for a 1x12, especially if it uses particle board. So I'm for smaller wattage and smaller sizes. I don't think I'm alone.

Some others need massive head room and don't want the output tubes pushed much for their playing styles. Those people will still need 100 watt amps. But the market is trending toward smaller wattage and smaller, more compact size, and lighter weight.

 

[some_dude]

Re: Little watt vs. BIG watt. Mesa Boogie and everyone else.

I don't think 100w amps are going away. Manufactures continue to release new models and they seem to be compensating for reduced volumes by engineering them sound better at lower volumes. Using Mesa as an example, they've recently released two 100w models (King Snake and JP2C). Both are multi-watt (10/60/100 and 60/100 respectively). Their most recent amps feature a mix of power scaling, pentode/triode, Class A/AB switching, built in attenuators and variac in an effort produce better sound at lower volumes.

Further, the 15/30w TransAtlantic was discontinued yet the Triple Rectifier is still in production. They've discontinued the 20/20 and 50/50 power amps while the 2:90 is still in production. The JP2C is designed to have more headroom than the Mark V. If they're still making it there must be a market.

If anything, I think small, low powered amps are eating away at the solid state and modelling markets. You go back 15 years ago and the average budget guitarist was using a Peavey Classic 30 or a Fender HRD with some distortion pedals. These days you can not only buy amps like a Tiny Terror, Nighttrain, but also the big name amps that everyone actually wants.... Marshall, 5150, Soldano, Mesa, etc.

Think for a moment.... When was the last time you saw a thread about a Line 6 amp? Crate? Marshall AVT?

Further, small amps continue to suffer the same problem they've always suffered.... they sound great, up to a point. And past that point you find yourself wishing you had more headroom. I think that's why on one end you're seeing manufacturers trying to make 30w amps sound better when turned up loud, whilst simultaneously making 100w amps that don't necessarily put out a full 100w.

 

[Empty Pockets]

Re: Little watt vs. BIG watt. Mesa Boogie and everyone else.

Yeah, just like the luxury car, motorcycle, and boat companies all went out of business, too.

Needs or practicality aside, some of us just prefer playing guitar through a big amp. I've tried to like many a small amp and they're just not for me. 30w and two 12s at least.

 

[Chickenwings]

Re: Little watt vs. BIG watt. Mesa Boogie and everyone else.

Smaller amps are not impeding the progress of larger amps options.
Larger amps are just not as in demand as they used to be.
The upside is that if you are a fan of big amps, then used prices will remain more reasonable.
Take the price of a 60s deluxe reverb vs a twin reverb as an example.
I guess that means good news for big vintage amp fans.
Even more modern stuff like mesa rectos and similar are pretty good on the used market, and lets face it...in a few years they will be vintage too.

 

[hydro]

Re: Little watt vs. BIG watt. Mesa Boogie and everyone else.

Being on the selling end of a dual recto recently, I can say that demand for big amps is down. I live in a big city and yet almost every shop I talked to had no interest in either 4x12s or 100 watt heads - "everyone wants small amps now".

But not me. I like a 50 watter with a 4x12 behind me. I have 4 different amps in that range right now and I won't go lower, although I will use smaller cabs sometimes.

I do see the appeal, at times, of just micing up a deluxe reverb and being done with it.

More interesting to me is that amp makers seem to insist on packing so many features into these big amps now. More channels, power scaling, rectifier options, EQ, built in FX. How about you just give me a basic single channel 50 watt tube amp with a 3 knob EQ, maybe a master volume if you just can't help it... all the extra knobs just bring me down. But features and flexibility are what sell amps to lots of people so I get that I am not their target demographic.

 

[SirJackdeFuzz]

Re: Little watt vs. BIG watt. Mesa Boogie and everyone else.

Being on the selling end of a dual recto recently, I can say that demand for big amps is down. I live in a big city and yet almost every shop I talked to had no interest in either 4x12s or 100 watt heads - "everyone wants small amps now".

But not me. I like a 50 watter with a 4x12 behind me. I have 4 different amps in that range right now and I won't go lower, although I will use smaller cabs sometimes.

I do see the appeal, at times, of just micing up a deluxe reverb and being done with it.

More interesting to me is that amp makers seem to insist on packing so many features into these big amps now. More channels, power scaling, rectifier options, EQ, built in FX. How about you just give me a basic single channel 50 watt tube amp with a 3 knob EQ, maybe a master volume if you just can't help it... all the extra knobs just bring me down. But features and flexibility are what sell amps to lots of people so I get that I am not their target demographic.

I hear ya.

I saw two gigs last week at the same 150 seater venue, and both acts, blues'ish/folk'ish and a blues-rock (think The Quire Boys) used ''little'' amps.

The blues gig was two Marshall Class 5's in stereo (sounded bloody good actually) and the Blues Rock band, used a Peavey Classic 30.

 

[hydro]

Re: Little watt vs. BIG watt. Mesa Boogie and everyone else.

I hear ya.

I saw two gigs last week at the same 150 seater venue, and both acts, blues'ish/folk'ish and a blues-rock (think The Quire Boys) used ''little'' amps.

The blues gig was two Marshall Class 5's in stereo (sounded bloody good actually) and the Blues Rock band, used a Peavey Classic 30.

One thing that changed for me recently is that I started using pedals more to get my dirt sounds, rather than using an amp's dirt channel. That makes something relatively simple like a Deluxe Reverb or maybe one of those new Supro reissue amps seem really appealing (especially since I use an old Princeton at home and it sounds great). Now I have tuned my Mesa Express to sound kind of Bassman-like, and have just been using the one channel and abandoned channel switching live. At some bigger shows I played through a Deluxe Reverb they had as a backline and I was happy as a clam.

But I still love big amps....:headbang:

 

[Open lane]

Re: Little watt vs. BIG watt. Mesa Boogie and everyone else.

Honestly, i think within the next 10-20yrs, everything is gonna be digital. Once companies start competing with fractal on products and prices, i'd imagine things will get very interesting. We're def not there yet but think it's coming. Just my 2c.

 

[SirJackdeFuzz]

Re: Little watt vs. BIG watt. Mesa Boogie and everyone else.

Honestly, i think within the next 10-20yrs, everything is gonna be digital. Once companies start competing with fractal on products and prices, i'd imagine things will get very interesting. We're def not there yet but think it's coming. Just my 2c.

Now there is a sad thought.

I do not know what is worst . . . your vision/statement, or ALL cars in the future being Automatic ONLY !!!

 

[Open lane]

Re: Little watt vs. BIG watt. Mesa Boogie and everyone else.

If the technology gets good enough, i wouldn't be against it. I mean, we could be looking at a situation where 50+ indentically modeled amp sounds would be avail for the price of a line6 POD. I without a doubt relate to your concerns, however. There are currently limitations. One example, exemplified through how the sounds of 99% of the technical deathmetal bands lack any sense of unique identity or sound, which although there are creative limits and boundries within the genre, the sounds and tones all became remarkably more similar after artists started to rely on digital tools and modeling avail in the new millennium, regardless of the 100s of options a cominations currently avail.

Also, it's possible developers will hit walls for 20-30 years, like the technology for midi/synth guitars has (all kinds of 'advancements' but still plagued with tracking a latency issues).

 

[guitfiddle]

Re: Little watt vs. BIG watt. Mesa Boogie and everyone else.

Big amps are never going away, simply because some people prefer the sound of a big amp breathing hard rather than a little amp screaming.

 

[Open lane]

Re: Little watt vs. BIG watt. Mesa Boogie and everyone else.

True but they now sell cabs designed especially for digital modeling. I don't see why that concept couldn't be expanded upon

 

[mantis]

Re: Little watt vs. BIG watt. Mesa Boogie and everyone else.

Maybe Guitarist of today are weaker little sissy's. Oh I can't carry a 50 lb head or a 80lb cabinet !!! What are you a man or a sissy?
I would never ever buy an amp based on size and weight. I judge my amp buying on sound quality only. Not watts not size not looks and especially not weight.
I don't care what it weighs I can carry it, I'm not a sissy puny punk who can't carry my amp or cab.

 

[Lake Placid Blues]

Re: Little watt vs. BIG watt. Mesa Boogie and everyone else.

Maybe Guitarist of today are weaker little sissy's. Oh I can't carry a 50 lb head or a 80lb cabinet !!! What are you a man or a sissy?
I would never ever buy an amp based on size and weight. I judge my amp buying on sound quality only. Not watts not size not looks and especially not weight.
I don't care what it weighs I can carry it, I'm not a sissy puny punk who can't carry my amp or cab.

LOL

Amp physical size has nothing to do with tone or wattage, though. Now speaker cabinet size can and usually does. The JTM45 and the 50 watt plexi chassis is the same size as the DSL15 and the EVH 50 watt at about 17" wide. The (small) plexi head box at 25" wide was actually over sized for the 50 watt plexi chassis. The head box could have been actually much smaller. Jim Marshall liked the looks of a half stack better with the head matching the width of a 4x12, which is about as small as it can be and still house 4 12" speakers, so the small head box was discontinued, at least until the reissues came about in the late 80s. It was all about the looks and the image presented. Plus its easier and less costly to mass produce amps with common sized chassis and cabinets regardless of the wattage.

There are 100 watt amp chassis (such as the original Mesa Boogie 100 watt combo) that are very small, about 20" x 20".

A full size head box is often awkward and impractical to transport though.

 

[Boogie Bill]

Re: Little watt vs. BIG watt. Mesa Boogie and everyone else.

I have several Mesa amps, in various sizes, and most have optional power settings. The Mark V, V:25 and V:35 go as few as ten watts. My Simul-Class Mark IIIs and the Mark IV go about 15 watts in their Class A settings and about 75--85 watts in the Simul-Class mode. The Mark V goes 90 watts at full-power. My big Mark III Coliseum head does 180 watts, a forerunner to the Triple Rec.

Random thoughts...

Normally, I prefer bigger amps. I like the sound of big bottle tubes. Took me a while to get used to EL84s; they are different. Do I prefer a pushed amp tone, or dynamic headroom? Yes.

The Mark IV is interesting because it has a lot of switching options in the power amp that not only affect the power level, but have dramatic effects on the FEEL of the amp. I love the size of these amps too. Stack one of these 112 combos on a 112 Thiele cab with the EVM speaker. Smaller footprint than a Twin Reverb, yet enough speaker and power to hang with most full stacks.

The 212 Maverick is Class A, while the DC-3 uses their patented Dyna-Watt circuit. Both can get loud. The DC-3 feels like the bigger amp. The Maverick, especially when using the tube rectifier, is deliciously squishy.

The Coliseum is incredibly dynamic in the full power mode. Notes just explode from the amp. Even the low power setting benefits from a compressor pedal. Yet the tone is very organic, but the Master Volume needs to be above 2.75. The best amp I've ever used, bar none. I use it with a Mesa Half-Back 412 with EVMs and C-90s.

One thing I really like about Mesas is that even their small amps have professional features. They don't make cheap practice amps. And most of them have very good tone at low volume and good control of the volume in the lower range of the dial.

I think small amps are here to stay, but I don't think high-powered amps are dead yet. Lot of guys using 7 and 8-string guitars and dropped tunings.

Certainly, transportation is an issue with bigger amps. Cars are smaller. People won't abide gas-guzzling maxi-vans. Tough getting that 412 cab into a Civic. Time for the Tiny Terror and a 112.

Many players play in more than one band, in different genres, in different sized venues. You can't expect one amp to do it all. The Mark Series Mesas are IMHO, one of the few that can cut across genres, and handle gigs from small clubs to arenas. The Rectos, though, have a much narrower and specific purpose.

The trick is...as always...selecting the right tool for the job.

Bill

 

[aleclee]

Re: Little watt vs. BIG watt. Mesa Boogie and everyone else.

Smaller amps are not impeding the progress of larger amps options.
Larger amps are just not as in demand as they used to be.

This. Unless you're talking about features like power scaling, there aren't many options on a small amp that wouldn't be applicable to a high wattage model.

Honestly, i think within the next 10-20yrs, everything is gonna be digital. Once companies start competing with fractal on products and prices, i'd imagine things will get very interesting. We're def not there yet but think it's coming. Just my 2c.

I tend to agree, assuming that guitar is still a relevant instrument 20 years from now. I'm not at all confident about that.