Looking To Buy A Friedman - Looking For Advice

[Jeff_H]

So, instead of buying another guitar with the $$ from selling my Gibson Gary Moore, I've decided to upgrade from my Marshall DSL40c. It's a decent amp but I'd like something more inspiring to play. I also think I want a head and 2x12 cab.

My choices came down to a Splawn Quick Rod and a Friedman Runt. Budget $2k max, but I'd like to spend less if possible. The Splawn has more options from an OD perspective with the 3 gears and the OD1/OD2 + boost. However, I don't want a 100w head, even with the 1/2 power switch. Now, a QR50 w/ 1/2 power switch is a possibility, but practically the same price new as the 100w, and I don't want to spend $1800 on the head alone. Plus, I don't think the cleans on the QR are nearly as good as the Friedman. Even with only 1 OD channel, the Friedman should have more OD than I need, for classic to hard rock.

I can't afford the Splawn new + a cab. I also can't afford the Runt 50 with a matching cab. I could swing the Runt 20 + matching cab, but I really don't want to spend $800 + shipping on a Friedman cab. I can buy a good cab made by the company that makes cabs for Two Rock, 65 Amps and some others loaded with greenbacks for $500, with grill cloth close to the Friedman. I can buy a slightly better cab from Avatar, the 3D Forte for the same money, but it only comes with Marshall Salt & Pepper Cloth.

Initially I had decided on the Runt 50, but I'm concerned that it will be too loud for home. The Runt 20 is a better fit volume wise, but I'm concerned I won't be happy with the EL84 tone vs. the EL34's. I've listened to all of the sound clips on the Friedman site and others, and there doesn't seem to be much difference in tone, but I'm still concerned that the EL84's wont give me that authentic Marshall EL34 roar I love so much. I think the Runt 50 will.

What do you all think? The only EL84 amp I've ever owned was the Blues Jr., and I didn't really care for it. I'd like your opinions on the Runt 20 vs. the Runt 50. Will the 20 give up the goods? Also, the 50 has more tone controls for the clean channel, but I think the cleans on the 20 will still be great...... yes or no?

Am I missing anything? I don't want to buy a Marshall again this time. I don't want Orange or anything else I can think of. Splawn or Runt? I would have to buy Splawn or Runt 50 used to make budget, and Splawn cabs and heads are much cheaper used than the Friedman stuff.

Thanks guys.

Edit...... I'll also sell my DSL40c, which I think I can get $350-$400 out of it.

 

[Gtrjunior]

Re: Looking To Buy A Friedman - Looking For Advice

I own a QR and I’ve played both a BE100 and an SS100.
All 3 are spectacular amps.

Just a note....I know early on people complained about the Splawn cleans. Let me put that to rest....these cleans are spectacular. Mine is a 2016 fully loaded model so all of the updates have been done. IOW, don’t NOT consider the Splawn because you have heard the cleanse aren’t good...that’s absolutely not true.

 

[allbutromeo]

Re: Looking To Buy A Friedman - Looking For Advice

Have considered a Splawn Super Sport? They're a little harder to find used, but a new 50w with EL34 is $1500 and a 22w with 6v6s is $1400. That's about the same price range as a used Friedman Runt 50

 

[dystrust]

Re: Looking To Buy A Friedman - Looking For Advice

Initially I had decided on the Runt 50, but I'm concerned that it will be too loud for home. The Runt 20 is a better fit volume wise, but I'm concerned I won't be happy with the EL84 tone vs. the EL34's. I've listened to all of the sound clips on the Friedman site and others, and there doesn't seem to be much difference in tone, but I'm still concerned that the EL84's wont give me that authentic Marshall EL34 roar I love so much. I think the Runt 50 will.

What do you all think? The only EL84 amp I've ever owned was the Blues Jr., and I didn't really care for it. I'd like your opinions on the Runt 20 vs. the Runt 50. Will the 20 give up the goods? Also, the 50 has more tone controls for the clean channel, but I think the cleans on the 20 will still be great...... yes or no?

High gain amps like Friedmans, Splawns, Soldanos, etc tend to be preamp-dominated as far as tone goes. It's not true for all of them, but generally speaking the type of power tube used doesn't make a huge difference unless you're playing ungodly loud. I'm not super familiar with Splawn or Friedman since I don't care for them, but here are a couple examples.

Soldanos typically use 5881s, but KT66s are a very popular mod. The tonal differences aren't huge and can generally be compensated for with the tone controls. IME switching to KT66s yields more bass, and the mids aren't as aggressive.

As far as similar amps using different power tubes, I own both a Jubilee 2555 and 2525H, and I'm very familiar with both the Mini Recto and 50W Single Rectifier. IMO the Mini Recto and Single sound extremely similar except at very high volume levels where the Single obviously has more headroom and bass response. In a blind test of both amps with similar settings, I seriously doubt that you'd be able to tell them apart.

The Jubilee 2555 and 2525H are a bit of a special case. Like most amps in this class, the 2555 doesn't seem to care about power tubes unless you're playing painfully loud. The 2525H OTOH is extremely picky about power tubes and they have much more tonal influence than in any other amp I've ever played. I suspect this is due to it being cathode bias, but that's merely an educated guess. These days I'm running a Tung-Sol in V1 and JJ EL34s in both amps and I don't really notice a difference between them unless I switch immediately from one to the other. The 2525H doesn't have 100% of the mojo, but it's very close. For the situations I find myself in these days the 2555 is just too loud, so 2525 it is.

 

[Gtrjunior]

Looking To Buy A Friedman - Looking For Advice

Also...as you window shop the Splawn amps there are a couple of things you’ll want to make sure you look for.
1) Scott (Splawn), at some point made a loop master volume part of the standard build because of the fact that these amps are capable of ridiculous volume.
With this feature, even a 100W QR is completely capable of great tone at a reasonable volume.
You’ll want to make sure any Splawn you may consider has this feature. Only the older ones won’t as he has been doing this for a while now.

2) One of the other options he offers is a switchable Drop B+ option. This lowers plate voltage to give the amp more sag. IMO, this is an important feature because the amp without it can be a bit stiff. But that stiffness is what makes it so tight too. The Drop B+ option loosens it up a bit.
I would think that this is something you would want. I know I’m glad I got it as part of my build.
The 50W models are Drop B+ by default so you won’t see this feature on them.

 

[Jeff_H]

Re: Looking To Buy A Friedman - Looking For Advice

Thank you all for the responses so far.

Gtr, I have read enough to know that the MV for the loop is critical. Without it, you have to play stoopid loud. Thank you for reminding me though, as it's an important item. I also want the old/new mod if possible. I didn't understand the drop B+ like that, so that will be important to me. I'm also glad to hear the cleans are not an issue. Much of my knowledge of Splawn was 2006 ish, so I wasn't quite up to snuff on everything.

Allbutromeo, thanks for the suggestion. I have looked at the SS, but independent EQ controls are something I'm pretty set on. I do like the price though. Maybe through my shopping it will become more of an option.

Distrust, great info there. I had read some opinions that mirror yours. That's the reason the Runt 20 came into consideration. I do have some killer 12AX7's for the amp I buy. I have NOS Bugle Boy, NOS Mullard, NOS RCA Blackplate and a white label GE. They made a difference when I had my JCM 800 (2205). I also have a brand new, NOS matched pair of Siemens EL34's. But, I'm not buying an amp just to fit the power tubes I have. The Siemens 34's were too hot for my DSL40c...the amp wouldn't bias to take them.

Regarding EL84 vs. EL34, listening to many clips (I know, quality of recording is all over the map), the main difference I hear however is in the clarity of the notes between the two. For lack of a better term, the EL84 notes, under gain, sound like they are wrapped with a little bit of an electronic fuzz bubble. Not horrible, but noticeable to me. The Friedman 34's have more clarity and lack the fuzz bubble. The cleans on both are great, but with the 50w you have a bit more control with bass and treble. I love the 3 way bright switch. So good on both.So, I have more to consider.

My initial wish list was as follows:

Head + 2x12
Hot Rodded Marshall Tone
Stellar Fenderish cleans
50 watts max.
EL34's
Independent EQ controls
Good at lower volumes & loud
1/2 Power Switch would be great

I welcome more opinions. I trust the guys here who like the same stuff that I do. Lay your wisdom on me and tell me where I am missing the boat. Are there other amps to consider (without going Mesa or something non Marshall sounding) given my wishes and budget?

 

[B2D]

Re: Looking To Buy A Friedman - Looking For Advice

Big, BIG Friedman amp fan here.

A good friend of mine recently purchased a used Runt 50. He uses an Orange 2x12 and gigs 3-4 times a month. He's quite happy with it. I don't know what the circuit is descended from, but it reminds me of a much more refined, more controllable JCM800. He gets a pretty good range of tones from it with the help of some pedals, good technique, and volume/tone manipulation on the guitar itself.

It's plenty loud and punchy for a 50W amp, but it's also controllable. Greg Marra mentioned to me that the Runt 50 was probably the smallest Friedman head that copped some of the vibe of the big ones, and I would agree.

I personally have not played the Runt 20, can't say how it compares, but anything Dave puts his name on has been excellent.

Any way you would make the drive to a local dealer that has one or both and try 'em? I'd recommend spending at least 30 minutes with each model. Or buy one from Sweetwater and return it if it winds up being not what you'd want?

 

[Diego]

Re: Looking To Buy A Friedman - Looking For Advice

I tried and cranked the **** out of a Friedman PT20 a few weeks ago through a matching 2x12.

Nothing suggested it had small tubes or something. It sounded huge for a 20 watts head. I'd give that Runt 20 a go if I was you.

 

[Gtrjunior]

Re: Looking To Buy A Friedman - Looking For Advice

Thank you all for the responses so far.

Gtr, I have read enough to know that the MV for the loop is critical. Without it, you have to play stoopid loud. Thank you for reminding me though, as it's an important item. I also want the old/new mod if possible. I didn't understand the drop B+ like that, so that will be important to me. I'm also glad to hear the cleans are not an issue. Much of my knowledge of Splawn was 2006 ish, so I wasn't quite up to snuff on everything.

Allbutromeo, thanks for the suggestion. I have looked at the SS, but independent EQ controls are something I'm pretty set on. I do like the price though. Maybe through my shopping it will become more of an option.

Distrust, great info there. I had read some opinions that mirror yours. That's the reason the Runt 20 came into consideration. I do have some killer 12AX7's for the amp I buy. I have NOS Bugle Boy, NOS Mullard, NOS RCA Blackplate and a white label GE. They made a difference when I had my JCM 800 (2205). I also have a brand new, NOS matched pair of Siemens EL34's. But, I'm not buying an amp just to fit the power tubes I have. The Siemens 34's were too hot for my DSL40c...the amp wouldn't bias to take them.

Regarding EL84 vs. EL34, listening to many clips (I know, quality of recording is all over the map), the main difference I hear however is in the clarity of the notes between the two. For lack of a better term, the EL84 notes, under gain, sound like they are wrapped with a little bit of an electronic fuzz bubble. Not horrible, but noticeable to me. The Friedman 34's have more clarity and lack the fuzz bubble. The cleans on both are great, but with the 50w you have a bit more control with bass and treble. I love the 3 way bright switch. So good on both.So, I have more to consider.

My initial wish list was as follows:

Head + 2x12
Hot Rodded Marshall Tone
Stellar Fenderish cleans
50 watts max.
EL34's
Independent EQ controls
Good at lower volumes & loud
1/2 Power Switch would be great

I welcome more opinions. I trust the guys here who like the same stuff that I do. Lay your wisdom on me and tell me where I am missing the boat. Are there other amps to consider (without going Mesa or something non Marshall sounding) given my wishes and budget?

The old setting is more angry sounding....its what I keep mine set to. [emoji4]

 

[BlueSnMettle]

Re: Looking To Buy A Friedman - Looking For Advice

Hey Jeff, there's a used Runt 50 on the Fleabay for $1450

 

[Cynical]

Re: Looking To Buy A Friedman - Looking For Advice

If "modded Marshall tone" is a goal, I'd go Splawn before Friedman. Friedmans kind of have something different going on, a lot more modern and somewhat more polite than I think of when I think "Marshall".

 

[metlking]

Re: Looking To Buy A Friedman - Looking For Advice

I have owned several Friedman amps.....JJ100, BE100, Smallbox, PT20 (twice) and now the Runt 50. The Runt is my favorite so far! It probably has something to do with the "bang for the buck" factor. I picked it up used for $1000. As far as the EL84 amps go, I couldn't comment on the Runt 20 but the PT20 is EL84 but you would never know it. It sounds huge! If the Runt 20 is anything like that I'll bet you'd be happy. I had a Splawn Quickrod from 2007 and I couldn't make it work for me. Cold, stiff and unforgiving of my admitted flaws. The lower B+ voltage option is supposed to address that but I have no experience with that....

 

[Jeff_H]

Re: Looking To Buy A Friedman - Looking For Advice

For those of you who have played the Friedman, does it do the Marshall thing? That is ultimately the tone profile I'm reaching for. It's hard to tell on clips because most of those guys just end up wanking the whole clip instead of playing some rhythm that I can evaluate, or they play djent chromatic stuff that is not what I play.

Last time I was in my GC, the only Friedman they had was a used BE-100. No Runts at all. Maybe Sam Ash will have some. Otherwise, I may have to drive to Austin or Houston. I do need to play one if at all possible.

Thanks for the opinions so far guys.

 

[Ayrton]

Re: Looking To Buy A Friedman - Looking For Advice

You can get a used BE100 for very close to $2k. Play one and the choice will be clear.

 

[Ayrton]

Re: Looking To Buy A Friedman - Looking For Advice

 

[B2D]

Re: Looking To Buy A Friedman - Looking For Advice

For those of you who have played the Friedman, does it do the Marshall thing? That is ultimately the tone profile I'm reaching for.

Oh yeah.

Here's the thing - I recall a guy in a good demo video of a Dirty Shirley (I think it was Lance from Destroy All Guitars) saying that the thing with Friedmans is this: (I'm paraphrasing here

You could go out and play maybe 10-15 vintage Marshalls or ANY classic tube marshall at random and maybe one or two will have that sound, that magic that we all look for when we think of a classic Marshall sound.

EVERY Friedman has that magic and then some.

They are a very refined take on the sound, yes. Personally I think they're not as raw and brutal and in-your-face as a full up 100w vintage plexi or a 2203 can be. But if that's what you want, go get one of those. Friedman amps are the next evolution of that lineage.

Splawn, Bogner, Metropolous, etc all have their own take on it, but Friedman just really nails the response and the EQ curve that I (and a lot of other people) want to hear.

 

[Jeff_H]

Re: Looking To Buy A Friedman - Looking For Advice

Thanks B2D. That's a great bit of info. Ī really think I've decided on the Runt 50 at this point. I need to play one and I need to play a Runt 20. I won't have the opportunity to play the Splawn. I doubt I'll find the used Splawn I would really want, which is the 50w Quick Rod, with all of the B+ and other options, at the price point I need. I realize the Splawn can be played at low levels through the effects loop, but 100w is just complete overkill for me. The Splawn options are very appealing to me though.

I think in the end, a simple 2 channel 50w Friedman that sounds fantastic is more my style right now. If it had "that" sound and is a bit more modern, I'm ok with it.

Time to play what I can.

 

[Gtrjunior]

Re: Looking To Buy A Friedman - Looking For Advice

Just for information sake the 50w Splawns are Drop B+ by default.

 

[Red_Label]

Re: Looking To Buy A Friedman - Looking For Advice

You can get a used BE100 for very close to $2k. Play one and the choice will be clear.

Yup. The BE was probably the best rock amp I ever had. Liked it better than the Smallbox, Dirty Shirley, and regular Taco. The Wildwood Taco sounded just like the BE/HBE channel. It was a BEAST. Wish I still had that monster. I would take that amp all day, every day over either Runt. The Runt has great cleans, but doesn't have the girth or complexity,/richness of the handwired Friedman's. I've had or home demoed all of Dave's incredible amps. The Runts are awesome... but the handwireds are better.

The BE50 Deluxe is the KING of do-it-all amps. Nothing else comes close IMO.

Loved the Quick Rod half stack that I had. It was one of the greats. But roll off your guitar volume and tell me that it cleans up better than a Friedman. Not in the same cosmos. Great clean channel, but not even close to my Buxom Betty (which is the same cleans as the BE50 Deluxe). The Betty sounds jaw dropping with my Strymon Sunset in front. Sounds just like a BE channel. That amp makes OD pedals sound like another amp channel.

 

[Ayrton]

Re: Looking To Buy A Friedman - Looking For Advice

The BE50 is the only amp out there I want.