Low Output P90s

[YeRedHouseOverYonder]

I took a chance on a vintage p90 at wound at 5.95k DCR for restoration purposes. Its "mid-late 50's" (more than likely A5 or A3). Just wondering what I should expect from it (neck or bridge pos.) since I've never owned a p90 wound that low. So far from searching other forums, it looks like it'll have more top end. The neck pickup is currently reading 7.78K. It crossed my mind to switch them around, but I'm also going to use a Seymour Duncan Pickup Booster.


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[Mincer]

It will be clear sounding, but also very touch-sensitive, which is one of the reasons many people seek out low-output pickups. Let us know how this project turns out when the pickup shows up.

 

[AlexR]

I have a similar reading on one of my vintage p90's that I bought. It puts out more signal than a high 7's pickup I had it paired with. Initially I put it in the neck, but it so overpowered the 7+ k one it ended up in the bridge, and balances well both from an output and tone perspective in that spot.

 

[YeRedHouseOverYonder]

^^^ That gives me a bit of relief. I'm going to slap it in the bridge just to see how it does. Then change the pots to be "era correct".

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[Erlend_G]

Atleast. you're running P90's ...

pickups of the gods \m/

 

[chadd]

I have a similar reading on one of my vintage p90's that I bought. It puts out more signal than a high 7's pickup I had it paired with. Initially I put it in the neck, but it so overpowered the 7+ k one it ended up in the bridge, and balances well both from an output and tone perspective in that spot.

The extra high end on lower output pickups can fool your ear into thinking they're louder. I've noticed that on a few guitars that I've owned.

 

[ItsaBass]

It won't have "more" high end like you were told it would. What it will have is less low end and low midrange obscuring the high end. The e.q. balance will be more tilted toward highs. It will also be lower in output, theoretically, but that's with all other things being equal. It depends on the magnetic strength of the pickups being compared. It will likely sound quite a bit more like a Fender pickup than your typical P90. But it will still be stronger, because it is a steel poled pickup design, and uses two magnets.

I would consider yourself lucky. It sounds like a very cool pickup that I'd love to own.

By their very definition, lower output pickups are less "touch sensitive," not more. But what that means is that you can use more extreme dynamics with your right hand, without having them compressed. You can dig in a lot harder with lower output pickups, without turning the tone to mush. That's why players like me, with a very heavy, dynamic, and percussive right hand (mainly rhythm playing), treasure them so much.

 

[AlexR]

The extra high end on lower output pickups can fool your ear into thinking they're louder. I've noticed that on a few guitars that I've owned.

All I know is that when it was first installed in the neck, it really overpowered the bridge and was just too thick. Of course its position in this case was the main problem. Once the position swap happened and was in the bridge, it was fatter than the other had been in the bridge.

 

[YeRedHouseOverYonder]

IThe e.q. balance will be more tilted toward highs.

This also crossed my mind when reading threads on multiple forums, but again, I've never owned a p90 wound that low. Low 7K p90s with A3s, sure, but not 5.95K.

As tempted as I am to just keep the 7.78k p90 in the neck and route the bridge slot for a humbucker, I need to remind myself that these guitars get ravaged for conversions. I'll just keep the p90s and use a booster.

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[ItsaBass]

Gorgeous guitar. Very early model converted to a wraparound tailpiece?

I absolutely love those frets. Either someone who really knew what they were doing re-fretted it, or they are original. They've usually been yanked and replaced with bigger frets, which kill the feel IMO.

 

[AlexR]

When you have an iconic and wonderful looking guitar like that you certainly don't want to ruin it with mods.
Is the 7k pickup a vintage one too??

 

[ErikH]

Now that is a Goldtop. Beautiful.

 

[YeRedHouseOverYonder]

I absolutely love those frets. Either someone who really knew what they were doing re-fretted it, or they are original. They've usually been yanked and replaced with bigger frets, which kill the feel IMO.

The frets are original. Still has the nibs, albeit shrunk. The inlays react to black light. Its going to need a refret soon. Will be keeping the frets thin, but the fretboard needs to be planed. Not sure how I feel about that.

When you have an iconic and wonderful looking guitar like that you certainly don't want to ruin it with mods.
Is the 7k pickup a vintage one too??

Yes, the 7k p90 is vintage as well. The bridge pickup is a Lollar. Doesn't sound bad, but is stale in comparison with the neck. I'm solely playing in the middle or neck position.

Unfortunately, the guitar had a refin, I'm assuming it happened in the '70s. Pots date to the 20th week of 1976. The bridge slot looks altered. IMO, the angle of the wraparound looks off. And of course, the trapeze was removed. You can see the route for grounding wire of the trapeze. It also had a neck reset.

I was able to bargain down on the price due to the changes and non original parts. The finish on the back of the guitar and headstock are original. No breaks. A lot of natural wear in the back. I am tempted to refin the gold, but as I asked in MLP, there doesn't seem to be anyone who shoots a proper goldtop.

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[ItsaBass]

The frets are original. Still has the nibs, albeit shrunk. The inlays react to black light. Its going to need a refret soon. Will be keeping the frets thin, but the fretboard needs to be planed. Not sure how I feel about that. The guitar is an early-mid '53 Les Paul.

Just so you know, the exact fret wire used for those is no longer made by anyone.

It started out extremely low and flat topped; it wasn't just hand milling that made it that way, as some people state. It was about .070" wide and about .025" tall when new.

You can take modern fret wire and have a very dedicated luthier hand modify it to the correct dimensions and shape. Dunlop 6250 or 6270 are you best bets as a starting point.

As for leveling the board...you don't necessarily need to do that. Luthiers do it as a matter of course, but it's not a requirement, even when major fingernail divots are present.

Despite the many things severely dinging its value, I would pay the money to send it to someone top notch.

I knew it had been refinished and many parts replaced. Looks like top only, though. As for refinishing the top...I wouldn't...but if I didn't, I wouldn't go with gold top. I might just strip down to bare wood, dye it yellow, and clear coat it. Three piece top, most likely.

Faber makes a nice intonated wraparound, for "player" purposes. It starts as a regular wraparound tailpiece, and is carved out for intonation. In other words, it looks like something someone could have had their tailpiece modified into back in the '50s, to improve intonation.

 

[YeRedHouseOverYonder]

Just so you know, the exact fret wire used for those is no longer made by anyone.

It started out extremely low and flat topped; it wasn't just hand milling that made it that way, as some people state. It was about .070" wide and about .025" tall when new.

You can take modern fret wire and have a very dedicated luthier hand modify it to the correct dimensions and shape. Dunlop 6250 or 6270 are you best bets as a starting point.

As for leveling the board...you don't necessarily need to do that. Luthiers do it as a matter of course, but it's not a requirement, even when major fingernail divots are present.

Despite the many things severely dinging its value, I would pay the money to send it to someone top notch.

I knew it had been refinished and many parts replaced. Looks like top only, though. As for refinishing the top...I wouldn't...but if I didn't, I wouldn't go with gold top. I might just strip down to bare wood, dye it yellow, and clear coat it. Three piece top, most likely.

Faber makes a nice intonated wraparound, for "player" purposes. It starts as a regular wraparound tailpiece, and is carved out for intonation. In other words, it looks like something someone could have had their tailpiece modified into back in the '50s, to improve intonation.

Yup, definitely found out there isn't anything remotely close to it now. I prefer Jescar over Dunlop frets for durability. Closest Jescar frets are .078" x .050" which gives me some leeway for the luthier to level the frets without leveling the board. The inlays are already shrinking and I don't want to replace them. There isn't any fretboard wear that would hinder playing. I will say that the low/thin vintage frets really allow you to feel the fretboard as you bend. The perks of having Brazilian boards shine here. I have a Korina Flying V w/ Brazilian that is a pleasure to play. Low/thin "vintage" frets on that one too. So I agree that it may kill the vibe of the guitar to go both taller and wider.

I'm in Los Angeles, so I'm taking this Bonamassa's luthier (one of them) on Sunset Blvd. Neeley Guitars has worked on a ton of old les pauls for tons of famous people, but also works with the 'little guys'. He repaired my friend's broken headstock back in the day (SG). He did mention leveling the board, may pick his brain in person/address the inlay concern.

The guitar is probably an early-mid 1953 Les Paul based on the trapeze, routing channel, and serial. The top refin is flaking unnaturally, which is why I'm debating a refin. It's been 90-100 F* in L.A, so I'm already sweating on this guitar. One of the flakes (which raise up and stick out) came off from playing. I had a '88 AVRI strat which the gold finish rubbed off rather than flake. I can't see a center seam with the finish, so it may be a 2-3 piece.

I'd be lying if I said that I didn't intend to modify this once I bought it. It would be easier to mod than preserve, but I'm going to do just that. Since I saved a large chunk of change due to the non original parts/refin, I have some old pots, the low wind p90, and knobs in route. Looking for low priced control plates at the moment. Will keep the tuners and bridge modern for functionality. Might go hipshot/mojoaxe. I do want a hybrid faber with titanium/brass tone bars.

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[ItsaBass]

I'm in L.A. too, born and raised. I know Neely. Actually, I had him do a warranty pickup replacement on my near new Les Paul Standard back in 2004. He replaced the nickel covered original with a chrome covered one. Stood out like a sore thumb once I realized it. Inspired me to dig out the original and open it up, before driving back nearly to West Hollywood. Turns out the internal coil wire that solders to the pickup baseplate had come undone. Resoldered it, put the cover back on, and put the original pickup back in, where it still sits.

So, instead of doing a simple diagnosis and quick fix, he just replaced the component. The way my mind works, and coming from a high tech mechanical background myself (mechanical operator on nuclear power plants), that's not a good way of handling a repair problem. You surgically diagnose a problem, or at lest attempt to, before just taking the shotgun approach and throwing parts at it. The latter is what bad mechanics do. But it's still somewhat understandable, knowing how the lazier and less academic approach is often the order of the day when actually running a business, and jumping straight to a replacement part would indeed fix the problem quickly. But the really bad thing to me is that he did the replacement with a non-matching part.

So, I don't endorse him. Based on that simple lack of attention to detail, I myself would never take a rare or vintage instrument to him. I'd be afraid that he'd be operating out of rote, not really paying attention to the specific individual problems of the instrument. It's not that I am calling him a bad craftsman; I really don't know. It's just that I have reservations based on my own experience.

I was thinking somebody more like Dan Erlewine for your re-fret, who is specialized in restoration and repair of antique instruments. He did some restoration on my '27 Martin, and he is unbelievably great.

How is it that Dunlops aren't as durable as Jescars? I've never noticed particularly fast wear with Dunlops or particularly slow wear with Jescars.

If durability is your aim, just go with stainless. If I was doing a fretless wonder re-fret, and bothering to custom file frets down to .070" by .025", and deciding to have frets that low on a frequently played instrument, I'd sure as **** use stainless to do it, so I'd never have to do it again. Despite wive's tales, they don't sound any different in the end.

Leveling is usually done to smooth the board after the fret pulling creates problems in that regard around the fret slots. It's not necessary unless you have a severely warped neck, or you've really butchered the areas around the slots during pulling. You can level just enough to give the frets some narrow "flats" – no wider than 0.1" – to seat into after gluing your chips back in, but you don't need to sand into your inlays. Then you steel wool the edges of the flats to transition them back into the board.

As for the fret nibs, on a guitar that's already that modded, I wouldn't even sweat losing them. Maintaining them makes the re-fret much more painstaking, and the results not necessarily any better, from a players perspective.

Good luck. It's an awesome guitar.

 

[ItsaBass]

P.S. For standard re-frets, I go to Eric Chaz. He is excellent, and I have been a customer of his all my guitar playing life, since he first opened his shop, pretty much. But as much as I endorse him, I would not send a valuable vintage guitar to him, because he does not specialize in vintage restoration, and he is not widely known. You want the person doing such major work on a guitar like that to be someone who restores old instruments day in and day out, and who is a "celebrity" of sorts in the world of luthiers. You want to be able to say, "This work was done by this guy," down the road. It matters, even if the guitar in question has been modified quite a bit from original.

 

[YeRedHouseOverYonder]

Doesn't seem like Dan Erlewine does his own work anymore. At least from what I'm seeing and reading. I would be hesitant to ship the guitar out for a refret just because of COVID and the way packages are being handled. My fiancée ordered a pack of clorox wipes from Costco and UPS managed to break the containers despite having packing material. I do have a lot of experience shipping guitars however.

My luthier up in North Hollywood, Randy (RWR guitars) does stellar fretwork and he's worked on my vintage guitars: '69 Les Paul, '56 Les Paul Junior, and '60s Melody Makers. He's worked on a '52 Les Paul that I've seen on the bench. He's actually repairing a 1950 Fender Lap Steel for me right now lol. A part of me just says to trust him and the other says to do it "right" and send it to Gruhns/Dan/Kim at Historic Makeovers. I will say that Neeley does put off a vibe that he is right and the customer isn't informed. So what he says goes. I do agree that guitars should be evaluating for their specific issues and not have cookie cutter repair methods. Especially old guitars like this. Randy would be more than willing to go thr extra mile on the frets if I request it. He knows I'm particular about keeping things vintage correct/appropriate.

Regarding Dunlop versus Jescar, a lot of my previous long term dunlop necks required a lot of work in the beginning and end of owning them. The Jescar necks have been one and done long term. All of this is IME, ymmv.

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[YeRedHouseOverYonder]

Frets measure approx. .0700" and .0145". SS are tempting as I love the smooth bending and feel them have.

Will post an update when the p90 arrives. Its shipping from Laguna Beach, CA. However the seller has a particular shipping schedule and availability.

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[YeRedHouseOverYonder]

P90 arrived. Read 6.09K yesterday. I had some issues converting it from a dogear to p90. The retaining bar was not drilled for the height screws that go between the pole-pieces. The alnico bars aren't original and different sizes. I have some alnico 3 bars enroute and will be drilling the retaining bar soon. Throbak cover looks pretty good with the original pickguard/p90.

I had to play with the height if the p90 to match the bridge closely. So far, it really does not push or drive the signal much. Clean tone is very twangy, but soft spoken at times. I'm hoping the replacement magnets will bring the output up just a touch. Will double check to see that I didn't reverse the polarity of the wires when I changed things. The original p90 in the bridge position is killing it. Wow, I did not expect it to sound so well there. It really puts the Lollar in its place, although it isn't much of a fair comparison.

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