low-passing electric guitars

[DankStar]

So I realized I'm going to need to low-pass the guitars on a recent recording. But the stuff I've seen on the web is kind of wacky. Some are saying 10K!? Yikes. I've seen another big name producer saying 15K, but even that seems like it's cutting off some key elements of my guitar sound.

I'll find what works for me, but for now, I'm curious if people are using it and where you seem to fall in the spectrum.

 

[Dadul]

Re: low-passing electric guitars

Haha, 10k and 15k is still way too high. Try 7k. Do this: do a HIGH pass at 7k (so just letting the high end through) and see if you can hear any useful sounds. It just sounds like fizz right? that means theres no useful information going on up that high, at least for guitars. Start lowering the high pass and when you start to hear notes come through, turn that high pass into a low pass. Guitars are mid range instruments, not high range.

Remember, the more you cut, the more headroom you have in your mix, the louder and more 'upfront' sounding you can get it in mastering.

 

[uOpt]

Re: low-passing electric guitars

What in the world?

Why do you think you need a cutoff?

In any case, your guitar speaker also does that, and if you don't use clipping of any kind so does your pickup.

 

[DankStar]

Re: low-passing electric guitars

The higher frequencies were sounding grating in the mix (like a high range fizziness I guess you'd call it), so I started researching it before I totally re-recorded things. Turns out it seems pretty common in hard rock/metal - and sometimes with a pretty drastic cutoff. I found a sweet spot between 16 and 19k, but that was just a quick fiddle to see if they'd be less harsh and still keep the nice overall tone I had going on.

I think some of that fizz above 7k is part of the tone I'm looking for. I mean I do like how the guitars sound in the room, they just need a tiny bit of tailoring now that they are with other instruments. If I'd had wanted a really drastic no treble thing going on I'd have dialed my amp differently to begin with. But I'll try that test to see what's up there.

 

[TwilightOdyssey]

Re: low-passing electric guitars

Did you try sweetening the sound instead of cutting?

 

[DankStar]

Re: low-passing electric guitars

Did you try sweetening the sound instead of cutting?

I just went for what I thought was the problem, and the first thing that came to mind was "low pass." Ideally I'd be in a kick arse room with a killer 4 x 12 and a sweet mic collection but I'm working with what I have.

 

[uOpt]

Re: low-passing electric guitars

How come you have anything significant above 7 K?

Your speakers cut off around that. Are you using a modeler?

 

[DankStar]

Re: low-passing electric guitars

Yes it's a modeler - though a tube power section then with a sm57 on a Celestion G12 Heritage 12" about an inch off center about 1/2 inch back from the cloth. Not drastically different of a sound than a normal amp really (I did several test runs with the modeler vs. real and for this particular thing the modeler worked best). I haven't looked at things with an analyzer or anything.

 

[uOpt]

Re: low-passing electric guitars

Yes it's a modeler - though a tube power section then with a sm57 on a celestion 12" about an inch off center about 1/2 inch back from the cloth. Not drastically different of a sound than a normal amp really (I did several test runs with the modeler vs. real and for this particular thing the modeler worked best). I haven't looked at things with an analyzer or anything.

You should. Unless you make up new things in effects afterwards any self-respected guitar speaker (not counting JC120, JBL E-120 and the like) will cut off at 6 or 7 kHz. Something is broken there if you hear a substantial difference from cutting off at 10 kHz.

 

[frankfalbo]

Re: low-passing electric guitars

Define cutoff. uOpt you're talking about something more like a 1st or 2nd order rolloff. There is still a ton of frequency content coming off of a guitar speaker between 7-20khz. If Dankstar is talking about a brick wall or a 5th order filter, you're talking about very different response curves.

I've used LPF but not liberally. Sometimes I will go in and apply frequency dependent compression. So if the guitar is being played lightly, 7-20khz is not affected. It's left up front. In the loud parts, it's basically as if I've run a LPF anyway because that range is held down.

 

[Dadul]

Re: low-passing electric guitars

What in the world?

Why do you think you need a cutoff?

In any case, your guitar speaker also does that, and if you don't use clipping of any kind so does your pickup.

Its very very common practice in mixing. Practically every distorted tone ever recorded on a commercial release has a low pass. Your speakers do roll off a lot of high end your amp gives them, but not completely - there is still noise up in the 16k region. Why would one need such a cutoff? Like I said - guitars are a mid range instrument, the more you cut the more sonic airspace there will be for cymbals, and the less incoherent mud there will be up in those super high frequencies. Same goes for the low end. That high and low end sounds great when your jamming by yourself, but you need to get rid of it if you want your mix to be worth listening to.

 

[TwilightOdyssey]

Re: low-passing electric guitars

Its very very common practice in mixing. Practically every distorted tone ever recorded on a commercial release has a low pass. Your speakers do roll off a lot of high end your amp gives them, but not completely - there is still noise up in the 16k region. Why would one need such a cutoff? Like I said - guitars are a mid range instrument, the more you cut the more sonic airspace there will be for cymbals, and the less incoherent mud there will be up in those super high frequencies. Same goes for the low end. That high and low end sounds great when your jamming by yourself, but you need to get rid of it if you want your mix to be worth listening to.

Proof, pls?
Not that I am doubting you, I know bracketing is very popular these days in mixing.
But I would like to see a specific article on guitar freqs in the air band and how they are treated. Or a video. Or an interview. Anything but a bunch of anonymous ppl on Internet forum (like this one).

Typically, any work in the air band is done from 7-10kHz, well within the hearing range for the average listener, and not with passing but with shelving.

As you specifically mention distorted guitars, I would like to see a source for this. I am genuinely curious, as I did a search prior to posting this response and couldn't turn anything up aside from typical bracketing, which is still not based on any real science, it's just a CYA approach (there are no useful bands to fix so better to remove them entirely for neatness' sake).

I just think bracketing very high freqs on guitar is done more as a safety precaution than based on much empirical data or actual acoustic phenomena. Or laziness.

You are correct -- guitar is a midrange instrument. But so is most everything else fighting to be heard in a mix. That's why it's called MIXING, not COMBINING.

But I disagree with what you are calling noise. And if your recorded guitar tones have distortion at 16k ... Something is very off with your recording chain or playback. Or both.

 

[Dadul]

Re: low-passing electric guitars

Proof, pls?
Not that I am doubting you, I know bracketing is very popular these days in mixing.
But I would like to see a specific article on guitar freqs in the air band and how they are treated. Or a video. Or an interview. Anything but a bunch of anonymous ppl on Internet forum (like this one).

Typically, any work in the air band is done from 7-10kHz, well within the hearing range for the average listener, and not with passing but with shelving.

As you specifically mention distorted guitars, I would like to see a source for this. I am genuinely curious, as I did a search prior to posting this response and couldn't turn anything up aside from typical bracketing, which is still not based on any real science, it's just a CYA approach (there are no useful bands to fix so better to remove them entirely for neatness' sake).

I just think bracketing very high freqs on guitar is done more as a safety precaution than based on much empirical data or actual acoustic phenomena. Or laziness.

You are correct -- guitar is a midrange instrument. But so is most everything else fighting to be heard in a mix. That's why it's called MIXING, not COMBINING.

But I disagree with what you are calling noise. And if your recorded guitar tones have distortion at 16k ... Something is very off with your recording chain or playback. Or both.

First vids that popped up on youtube

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAJHNKroqL4 Guy cuts at 10k, a bit high for me but still good
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAJHNKroqL4 this guy cuts at about 7k, and gives a good explanation why you should low pass. (skip to 6:00 mark)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bqR8ewFsae8 guy low passes at 8k, also explains why a little

you get the idea, the more you cut, the more room you have in the mix. Cutting is good.

P.S. Not sure what you mean by 'bracketing'.. I assume you mean band passing.

 

[TwilightOdyssey]

Re: low-passing electric guitars

Thanks, will check these out!

Bracketing = high pass + low pass on the same track/buss.

 

[TwilightOdyssey]

Re: low-passing electric guitars

As a side note, this thread is great!

I love having notions challenged and new ideas/techniques discussed in an air of cooperation and betterment.
Also surprisingly free of BS!

 

[mamm]

Re: low-passing electric guitars

What, guitar above 10KHz? Are you using your dog's guitar? eheh...

Any semi-decent guitar amp/guitar speaker combination will cut way before that, so I assume that a semi-decent modeller would do too - but what do I know? I don't like and don't use modellers while recording.

Could the OP kindly provide the name of this marvelous (NOT!) modeller who likes to compete with cymbals and breathing sounds?

 

[vinta9e]

Re: low-passing electric guitars

So I realized I'm going to need to low-pass the guitars on a recent recording. But the stuff I've seen on the web is kind of wacky. Some are saying 10K!? Yikes. I've seen another big name producer saying 15K, but even that seems like it's cutting off some key elements of my guitar sound.

I'll find what works for me, but for now, I'm curious if people are using it and where you seem to fall in the spectrum.

To lowpass or not to lowpass, that is the question. We are talking about trace amounts of nuts here. It's just funny noises and artifacts at very low amplitudes but you might want to keep them so as to retain the coloration of your recording chain. I generally prefer leaving them alone rather than cutting them out. I like coloration and dislike excess doctoring.

The problem is, those dog whistles are going to be reduced to mush the moment you convert the waveform into a lossy format. So if I were in your shoes, I might insert an easily bypassable LPF on the guitar(s), render two files with it on and off and see where that gets me after further processing.

It's really a matter of an aesthetic choice, not a commandment set in stone. You won't gain a ton of headroom because we're dealing with low amplitude content. Giving up these guitar artifacts might buy you a pinch of clarity in cymbal harmonics, for example. Whether it's worth it or not, should be your own, aware and sovereign decision.

 

[AudioWonderland]

Re: low-passing electric guitars

So I realized I'm going to need to low-pass the guitars on a recent recording. But the stuff I've seen on the web is kind of wacky. Some are saying 10K!? Yikes. I've seen another big name producer saying 15K, but even that seems like it's cutting off some key elements of my guitar sound.

I'll find what works for me, but for now, I'm curious if people are using it and where you seem to fall in the spectrum.

10-12khz is about the max a guitar speaker can reproduce on the top end..

Its actually rare to hear of real amps being low passed. That's usually reserved for removing the hash from modellers. High passing is much more common and is usually in the 40-200hz range

 

[mamm]

Re: low-passing electric guitars

High passing is much more common and is usually in the 40-200hz range

Now we're talking. 99% of the time, I high pass everything that's not bass or drums.

 

[uOpt]

Re: low-passing electric guitars

Damn, now you people made me record some speakers this weekend