Lower output pickup into a very high gain amp

SAVAGE DISTORTION

SAVAGE DISTORTION

New member
I was just curious if anyone else has found that when using a very high gain amp(6505,evh 5153,engl,mesa or other)
that a lower output(10K and under) just seems to sound a lot more articulate,rich,dynamic and yes even more powerful with these amps?
Just got a 5153 50 watter and really love the amp and did some experimenting with it,
After trying a different things i am getting my best tones with using a screamin demon,Patb3 or a 78.
Tried a really old JB and even though i do like that pickup it lacks what these others bring to the table, same goes for the custom and the distortion models
So i just wanted to hear what others have experienced?
Maybe you are the opposite and prefer a very high output pickup with these amps?
 
Re: Lower output pickup into a very high gain amp

I find that too. A lower output pickup mantains clarity and dynamics intact. Higher output puckups, on the other hand, go well when paired with lower gain amplifiers in order to achieve more preamp distortion.

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Re: Lower output pickup into a very high gain amp

Some years before I bought anything other than practice amps and a Peavey 1x12 combo, I figured out that distortion-class pickups into high-gain amps would not be a good idea, since those pickups came about for the purpose of pushing the preamp without relying on a pedal to do it.

Once high-gain amps started hitting the market, it made sense to me that you would fare better with a medium-output pickup, since it didn't need to slam the front end as hard, and you would get a more articulate tone.
But some people like the sound of white noise, so they get the highest-output pickup they can find and run it into the highest-gain amp they can find. Then they want to know if X or Y pedal would help with articulation.
 
Lower output pickup into a very high gain amp

I don't understand these threads. Lower output into high gain amps is great, because one can simply increase the preamp gain.

But obviously, the opposite ain't true. You can't lower the preamp gain when using a higher output pickup. Then it's suddenly stuck on "white noise"? It's simply wrong. Gain is gain.

And what clarity can seth lovers through a 6505 offer that the BW does not?

And picking dynamics? For metal? Seriously?! ;)


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Re: Lower output pickup into a very high gain amp

There is a reason why most metal players use medium to high output pickups, hell many even use a boost then go into a high gain amp. Its all about hitting your amp with the right amount of the correct frequencies. A lot of the detail and harmonic overtones people rave about on low output pickups become noise in the high end through a ton of preamp gain. A high output pickup smacking the front end and causing it to compress is actually a good thing, it evens out the volume between the louder and quieter passages.

No matter how much gain you have a low output pickup into a high gain amp doesnt sound the same as a high output one.

Ive always had much better luck not trying to get all my dirt from just 1 source. For me its better to get some from the pup...some from the boost...some from the preamp and a touch from the power amp... and enough volume to push the speakers... thats the best metal tone.
 
Re: Lower output pickup into a very high gain amp

I'm with Edgecrusher on this one. I always get the best tone (for me) by combining pickup, pedal and amp gain.

The first person I thought of is Michael Romeo. His tone is awesome and his guitar has an X2N going into and Engl.

But that's pretty much how it goes. Do what you want.
 
Re: Lower output pickup into a very high gain amp

I like medium output pickups for metal for that purpose. I can also boost it with an OD.

On the other hand, I love actives and a few really hot passives because I can roll the amp gain way back and I feel like there is quite a bit more clarity. I can roll it back even farther if I want to add an OD (for example: when I'm using equipment that isn't mine.).

I haven't really settled on anything. I'm still deciding what's best for me.
 
Re: Lower output pickup into a very high gain amp

Well, I've tried the whole vintage PAF into high-gain amp thing, but it just wasn't for me. Sure, there's a little added clarity, and particularly high-end sparkle that higher-output pickups don't seem to have, but they're also not voiced quite how I like them for my playing.

To me, it was difficult to find that sweet spot where the tone was clear and chunky, but not undergained, particularly with the fast palm-muted stuff. Yes, they're more dynamic, but to me, it also makes them feel a bit awkward with a weird chirpy attack, especially with the faster gallops, 16th note runs, etc. It's a shame because those airy highs you just don't get from the higher output stuff.

To me, the happy medium between chunk and clarity has been in high-output, but not blistering high output pickups. Haven't really tried anything mid-output like the Perpetual Burn or Custom 5. I'd like to try something like that.
 
Re: Lower output pickup into a very high gain amp

I dig it. I recorded a Screamin' Demon into a 6505+ and it sounded great.

However... I wouldn't play metal that way. For metal you just need that extra push and compression from the pickups.

For Hard Rock, it's wonderful.
 
Re: Lower output pickup into a very high gain amp

Edgecrusher said:
There is a reason why most metal players use medium to high output pickups, hell many even use a boost then go into a high gain amp. Its all about hitting your amp with the right amount of the correct frequencies. A lot of the detail and harmonic overtones people rave about on low output pickups become noise in the high end through a ton of preamp gain. A high output pickup smacking the front end and causing it to compress is actually a good thing, it evens out the volume between the louder and quieter passages.

No matter how much gain you have a low output pickup into a high gain amp doesnt sound the same as a high output one.

Ive always had much better luck not trying to get all my dirt from just 1 source. For me its better to get some from the pup...some from the boost...some from the preamp and a touch from the power amp... and enough volume to push the speakers... thats the best metal tone.
Click to expand...

Agreed, I love that tone. My El Diablo pup thru my Randall kicks @ss.

I also have a guitar with a 78, and thru the same amp, same high gain gives me a great articulate tone. I love that one too, they're both great, just different. If I'm playin hard rock, thrash, or blues I use the 78, if I'm donig Death Metal I preffer the Diablo. I like em both and that's why we like to have more than one guitar!
 
Re: Lower output pickup into a very high gain amp

I use lower gain (Strat to PAF range) pickups into a Mesa Tremoverb. I love it, but I like my treble there since I can always cut it with a tone knob. IMO, if you have a high gain amp, you should get a pickup that has your favorite EQ curver and dynamic response to the way you play. Volume can be added or removed plenty of ways. Get the sound you want and don't worry about output.
 
Re: Lower output pickup into a very high gain amp

IMO it depends on the amp/pickup combo more than the output level. A Truly high gain amp that can deliver enough gain can sound great with a low output pickup, or a medium output, or a high output pickup. IMO the amount of signal to noise and the eq curve are far more important than the output level. An unpotted Marshallhead can sound amazing with high gain, as can a black winter. Output level is just one of, and in the case of a high gain amp, one of the least relevant aspects of your tone.
 
Re: Lower output pickup into a very high gain amp

SAVAGE DISTORTION said:
I was just curious if anyone else has found that when using a very high gain amp(6505,evh 5153,engl,mesa or other)
that a lower output(10K and under) just seems to sound a lot more articulate,rich,dynamic and yes even more powerful with these amps?
Just got a 5153 50 watter and really love the amp and did some experimenting with it,
After trying a different things i am getting my best tones with using a screamin demon,Patb3 or a 78.
Tried a really old JB and even though i do like that pickup it lacks what these others bring to the table, same goes for the custom and the distortion models
So i just wanted to hear what others have experienced?
Maybe you are the opposite and prefer a very high output pickup with these amps?
Click to expand...

Yes because lower output pickups have more content that gets amplified. I particularly enjoy the results of this approach with neck single coils but a bridge HB with lower output may not be as great for palm muting (Screaming Demon users can correct me). I have tried the JB and it is a great pickup but I find it kind of a difficult task for me to go with something more powerful and still have a good match neck single coil.
 
Re: Lower output pickup into a very high gain amp

LazNovak said:
I'm with Edgecrusher on this one. I always get the best tone (for me) by combining pickup, pedal and amp gain.

The first person I thought of is Michael Romeo. His tone is awesome and his guitar has an X2N going into and Engl.

But that's pretty much how it goes. Do what you want.
Click to expand...

Michael Romeo is an awesome player and composer BUT I don't like his guitar tone , too much fizz and compression ,
and actually enjoy more the tone of Y Malmsteen who use single coils and get some dynamics .
 
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Re: Lower output pickup into a very high gain amp

I've found that the medium to higher output pickups had the edge and bite that I like. I've tried lower output pickups that have sounded great but just didn't jive with me. Personally the Dimebucker is one of the most articulate pickups I've used and it is definitely on the high output side of things.

IMENATOR said:
Yes because lower output pickups have more content that gets amplified. I particularly enjoy the results of this approach with neck single coils but a bridge HB with lower output may not be as great for palm muting (Screaming Demon users can correct me). I have tried the JB and it is a great pickup but I find it kind of a difficult task for me to go with something more powerful and still have a good match neck single coil.
Click to expand...

I use the Demon and have no issues with palm muting–It is a medium output pickup and in my guitars offers great sustain, articulation and harmonics.
 
Re: Lower output pickup into a very high gain amp

Stacking gains on top of each other starts to compress and distort the signal in a non-musical way. If you use a high gain amp and pickups, then roll back the gain on the amp. You don't need to dime it. If you find that you need a bit more tightness, then lower the gain a little more and use a tube screamer to tighten up the sound.
 
Re: Lower output pickup into a very high gain amp

Or back off the guitar's volume for rhythms, then roll it up to 10 for solos. That's what controls on the guitar are for - adjusting your output to the amp.

"Metal" covers such a broad range of tones and everyone has their own definition of "the best Metal tone". I know many people are afraid of categorization and classification (Doom/Death/Heavy/etc) but these are necessary when you enter these discussions. The Trooper will not be as articulate if played with the Sad But True tone, and Sad But True would not be as heavy if played with The Trooper tone.
Yet both of those are Metal.
 
Re: Lower output pickup into a very high gain amp

DrNewcenstein said:
The Trooper will not be as articulate if played with the Sad But True tone, and Sad But True would not be as heavy if played with The Trooper tone.
Yet both of those are Metal.
Click to expand...

And none of those examples were played with PAF's. ;)


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Re: Lower output pickup into a very high gain amp

Was not aware Dave Murray and Adrian Smith ran into high-gain amps, either ;)
 
Re: Lower output pickup into a very high gain amp

DrNewcenstein said:
Was not aware Dave Murray and Adrian Smith ran into high-gain amps, either ;)
Click to expand...

But it defies the assertion that high gain pups arent as articulate. Dahlas original point was that lowering the gain with a high output pickup was just as valid of approach.
 
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