Luthiers: 9 string Cobain/Lennon Acoust-alectric advice needed

[Kivitel]

I was playing my acoustic the other day, when I realized I would be really annoyed if I damaged it at all - it's a bright orange gretsch, and I find it way to 'pretty' for an instrument that I really want to curl up with.

I've decided to sell it on ebay and buy the best, ordinary dreadnaught or large concert sized acoustic I can - with the express purpose of messing with it. I was thinking of getting a Durango j-45 clone (some acoustic guitar magazine said they were 90% as good as the real thing - good wood, careful fretwork, wonderful tone for $199)

Now, one of my favorite guitar tones of all time is that of John Lennon's acoustic gibson - basically a slope shouldered dreadnaught with a pickup at the neck. I also like Kurt Cobain's unplugged tone, but I believe he wasn't using the original pickups on his D-18e for that, but rather a soundhole pickup. Basically I think that instrument looked bad-ass.

The point is this: I want an acoustic with two magnetic pickups and piezo mixed together. This is an unusual thing to do, so I need help from all you experts. Please give your impressions on the following possible modifications:

1. I was thinking of using a Fishman power chip to integrate the magnetic pickups with the piezo. Does anyone know if the power chip can be used with other piezos beside the fishman power-bridges? Can its output compete with two humbuckers (low output, likely).

2. I have heard that mounting magnetic pickups on an acoustic can create feedback. Is this a real problem?
2a. What causes it?
2b. Can it be prevented by fastening pickups to the neck (jazz style)?
2c. Is routing out part of the soundboard for a bridge HB a terrible idea?

3. What sort of magnetic pickups would work well in something like this?
3a. Mini humbuckers?
3b. Full sized HB?
3c. EMGs?
3d. Lace sensors?
3e. Rickenbackers or filtertrons?
3f. I have a Les Paul wiring harness - can I modify this for the powerchip?

Finally, :friday:, can I...okay this one is going to sound crazy, :amish: can I stick 3 extra tuners on the headstock, recut the nut, install a tailpiece and turn this into a 9 string? The idea for the tailpiece being the bridge might not have space for 2 more endpin holes, and the pull might be too much.

I know one old blues player did this with his Harmony Soveriegn - except he didn't use a tailpiece. In fact, both of the 9 string guitars I know of existing (Alvarez made one for a short while) are 6 stringers with added strings (no extra bracing). The idea is you get the solid bass of a 6 string with the chime of a 12 on top.

So,

:banana: 4. Insane? I have the tools and time and craft skills to do this (no fear of messing up - the whole instrument is supposed to look disposable).
4a. Can I stick an extra brace on the soundboard to help with the tension if that is an issue?
4b. Will this necessitate a wider fingerboard?
4c. Will a tailpiece provide enough downward force for the strings? I have seen a few vintage flat tops with a tailpiece, but they are unusual.

Thanks for your help on my ridiculous project.

 

[JB_From_Hell]

Re: Luthiers: 9 string Cobain/Lennon Acoust-alectric advice needed

Ya know... I like your 9-string idea far more than a 12. I don't see why mounting the pickups on it would cause feedback.... I've seen/played plenty of hollowbodies with pickups mounted right on the top.

 

[ImmortalSix]

Re: Luthiers: 9 string Cobain/Lennon Acoust-alectric advice needed

I ran a Lace Sensor acoustic soundhole pickup in a Guild D30 in a live setting many a time, either through a nice acoustic amp (not mine) or just through the clean channel of my Fender solid state 2x12 amp with really good results.

It sounded really good - less "plunky" than those damn piezos :zip:

 

[baritone]

Re: Luthiers: 9 string Cobain/Lennon Acoust-alectric advice needed

What if you just look for a 12-string, and put 9 strings on it? Or are you looking for 9 distinct strings, rather than doubling octaves? Anyways, your overall product can be achieved either way, but I wouldn't do it. Also, for the Nirvana unplugged sound, he plugged into a Fender Twin Reverb amp with different tubes, and passed his signal through a DS-2 and a Small Clone on the way.

 

[ImmortalSix]

Re: Luthiers: 9 string Cobain/Lennon Acoust-alectric advice needed

* If you wanted to hard mount this pickup, I'd support it. I tried out a lot of pickups when I bought this one (Fishman, D'addario, Martin, Dean Markley, Seymour Duncan, L.R. Baggs) and this one came out top dog, fwiw.

I also hardmounted it in my Jackson shredding guitar once... keep it in your acoustic :laugh2:

 

[idsnowdog]

Re: Luthiers: 9 string Cobain/Lennon Acoust-alectric advice needed

Alvarez Yiari made a 9 string during the 80's. The three bass strings were plain and the treble strings doubled. I played one and LOVED it! If your going to mix the two different pickup types I would suggest something like a Pendulum preamp so you can mix and EQ both pickups.

 

[Kivitel]

Re: Luthiers: 9 string Cobain/Lennon Acoust-alectric advice needed

Hey everyone -
Thanks for your advice so far. I would love for more input, but I guess this is uncharted territory.

I am seriously considering scrapping the piezo idea, just because I find the inherent sound of the piezo ugly. I'm thinking a soundhole pickup with two HBs (maybe a jazz-style neck mount on the neck and something clangier in the bridge).

Baritone: thanks for the info. I knew about the twin, but I didn't know about the clone. I will look for a bartolinini 3AV.

Anyone have more input about the 9 string? (doubled treble strings).

 

[ericmeyer4]

Re: Luthiers: 9 string Cobain/Lennon Acoust-alectric advice needed

I +1 the idea of just getting a 12 string and only stringing the tops.

 

[Myka]

Re: Luthiers: 9 string Cobain/Lennon Acoust-alectric advice needed

Cool forum. I heard about it from TGP and thought I would join in when I have the time. This topic aught my eye since I am working out something like this right now (a hollowbody double neck guitar). Anyway, back on topic…

The point is this: I want an acoustic with two magnetic pickups and piezo mixed together. This is an unusual thing to do, so ...

Actually it is not unusual at all. I have built a few instruments like this and the results are exceptional. I would presonally forget about piezo though. The quack is horibble and the response is way too tinny, bright, and brittle. I use Pickup The World. These are the warmest undersaddle pickups I have ever heard and the range is incredible.

I will answer the rest of your questions in order:

1. I was thinking of using a Fishman power chip to integrate the magnetic pickups with the piezo. Does anyone know if the power chip can be used with other piezos beside the fishman power-bridges? Can its output compete with two humbuckers (low output, likely).

That will work fine. I believe they have a blend option so you can mix the signals to what you want. And you can use most other piezos or Pickup the World pickups with it. The LRBaggs Control-X is another good choice that allows for blending the signals.

2. I have heard that mounting magnetic pickups on an acoustic can create feedback. Is this a real problem?
2a. What causes it?
2b. Can it be prevented by fastening pickups to the neck (jazz style)?
2c. Is routing out part of the soundboard for a bridge HB a terrible idea?

Mounting a heavy humbucker on the soundboard will more than likely reduce the feedback potential. This is becuase the extra mass on the soundboard will inhibit it's movement. The xtra holes in the top may counteract that a bit. I have not had a problem with it though.

2a. Feedback is caused when the output of a speaker (air pressure) vibrates the top of the guitar. This in turn affects the strings and adds to their output resulting in more output from the speaker, and around we go until it squeals like a banshee!
2b: No because the top vibrations cause feedback. You would need to dampen the top with something (a humbucker or two would do the trick).
2c: It is not a trerrible idea provided that you do not route into any braces, and then reinforce the area around the route by adding smaller braces in in parallel with the strings on either side of the pickups. This may not be necessary but it will make for a stronger top if you do it this way.

3. What sort of magnetic pickups would work well in something like this?
3f. I have a Les Paul wiring harness - can I modify this for the powerchip?

Yes, the Powerchip takes a single input for the magnetic signal. Instead of running your positive to the output jack run it into the Powerchip.

Finally, :friday:, can I...okay this one is going to sound crazy, :amish: can I stick 3 extra tuners on the headstock, recut the nut, install a tailpiece and turn this into a 9 string? The idea for the tailpiece being the bridge might not have space for 2 more endpin holes, and the pull might be too much.

Sure, why not? If there is room it should be strong enough. The tailpiece may not be necessary if there is room on the bridge for a few more pins. If not then you can add another smaller bridge behind it for the extra pins.

I have the tools and time and craft skills to do this (no fear of messing up - the whole instrument is supposed to look disposable).
4a. Can I stick an extra brace on the soundboard to help with the tension if that is an issue?
4b. Will this necessitate a wider fingerboard?
4c. Will a tailpiece provide enough downward force for the strings? I have seen a few vintage flat tops with a tailpiece, but they are unusual.

4a: You might not have to. Most acoustics are overbraced anyway. If you do need to then yes you can.
4b: It depends on how you recut the nut and if that leaves you with enough room for how you play. If you not then you need a new wider neck.
4c: No, probably not. The extra bridge idea is the way to go for this one I think.

The 12-string idea sounds like a great one but you still need to be careful of the bracing when routing for humbuckers.

What do you think about building a guitar from a kit and modifying it to suit your needs? This way you can tackle the internal bracing issues straight away and by designing it yourself you can make sure it is just the way you want it. Stew-Mac makes decent kits along with LMII. Just some ideas.

~David

 

[Kivitel]

Re: Luthiers: 9 string Cobain/Lennon Acoust-alectric advice needed

David -
I want to thank you for your extremely thoughtful response. I will probably heed most of your suggestions, with the exception of the last. I've looked at the lmii/martin/stewmac kits, and I think it would be fun to make one, but that doesn't change the fact I can get a guaranteed-playable instrument for less.

Thanks for your explanation of why feedback won't be an issue.

I plan on using a fairly inexpensive j45 clone for this project, thereby limiting my disaster liability. I am not going for the three thousand dollar guitar sound - the perfect sparkly clear sort of tone you hear on overproduced records. So if I make some tonal mistakes I have to clear up with EQ and playing style...so be it. I will be playing this through a modified fender twin knockoff from the seventies (and maybe a good chorus pedal, as suggested - I don't like thick effects but I think it might sound good).

Thanks for the pickup link, I didn't know the difference between the film pickups and the piezo ones. I actually heard a really nice piezo sound clip on the web today, for the K&K mini western - 3 small elements (I think they're piezo, anyway). Great sound. I agree with you on the typical piezos, though - I think they sound cool mixed into a parker or the Eastwood p90/resonator, but when they try to sound like a real acoustic they just don't work.

I do have a few more questions though - first, can you recommend any magnetic pickups that work well on acoustics? I am interested in all sorts- single coil stacks, soundhole pickups, filtertrons, PAFs, etc. Second, what sort of distance is typical between pairs of strings on a 12 string? Is there some measurement rule of thumb?

Anyway, thanks again for your truly informative response. I am impressed and delighted. It is also nice to see someone who can appreciate a new tonality for it's own virtues rather than for how well it represents something that came before. This project isn't at the tippy top of my list right now, but I will keep the forum informed if any interesting things happen / pictures get taken.

 

[ericmeyer4]

Re: Luthiers: 9 string Cobain/Lennon Acoust-alectric advice needed

If you are going to add the 3 tunners to the 6 string I suggest some of those Firebird style tuners. They can be found at Stewmac.com. I think those will give you the most room to do what you want to do.

 

[baritone]

Re: Luthiers: 9 string Cobain/Lennon Acoust-alectric advice needed

I don't really play acoustic, but I used to have a Dean Markley soundhole humbucker. For my use it was a lot of fun, and I occasionally ran it through a distortion pedal, and people would be like, "what the heck is he doing?"

 

[Myka]

Re: Luthiers: 9 string Cobain/Lennon Acoust-alectric advice needed

I am not going for the three thousand dollar guitar sound - the perfect sparkly clear sort of tone you hear on overproduced records.

Good plan. I would not go for that sound either (although I could not imagine that it would make much of a difference what you played if it was to be overproduced in the studio). I understand your reason for not wanting to invest in a kit guitar. The suggestion was not so much for the tone since it takes years to develop the skills to voice an acoustic. It was more for the blank slate to work from so you can build exactly what you wanted. If the j45 works then that's perfect.

As for pickups I have used Bartolini humbuckers with great success. Steve Klein uses EMGs for the same reason: total high fidelity. hifi is not what you want in a gritty electric guitar but it works perfectly for an acoustic. Anything with epoxy potting would do well. I personally have not enjoyed the soundhole pickups but most people like them enough suggest that they can produce something that works. You may also want to try some of the thinner archtop guitar pickups. They might be able to fit on the soundboard without routing (depending on your action).

Spacing for a 12-string is something that seems to vary. I would just draw it out and see how it looks. You can go a little closer to the edge with the outer strings (but not too much so they don't slip off the edge) and then fit the extras in. The pairs are usually closer together than the rest of them but if you remove the 6 double strings the spacing is still even albeit a touch wider than a regular 6 string. I know I didn't give you any specs but I hope this helps!

~David