Magnets for PAF style

[ALBATROS1234]

I am gathering information and materials to try my hand at pickup winding and have some questions about magnets.I bought a couple of kits for $20 each from ebay to start .I have scratched the baseplate and it is not plated brass,and is supposed to be nickel silver. Everything else seems to be decent quality although the spacer is plastic not maple but I doubt this makes a difference to tone.. The magnets are supposed to be A5 and are a long smooth cast version. I have read a lot about rough cast and unoriented etc.and know this is traditional to 50S PAFs. I was wondering mainly because I have seen alnico bar magnets range from $5 to $50. I may actually want to try A2s as my goal is 1950s low output PAF. The newbie questions are, is there a huge difference between these magnets? I simply have no experience and I know how guitar players can be, which can sometimes border on gullible . I am a tube amp builder and do repairs and have built a few guitars and for instance I see a lot about the great bumblebee caps which in my experience are terrible for reliability. I have seen used ones on sale one Ebay for ridiculous prices. That said I would be willing to spend more on magnets if there is a major difference. If a $5 magnet is 95% as good as a $50 one I don't see the point though. Also who are reputable magnet suppliers who can be trusted to be selling what they say they are selling? Is there a $30 magnet that is much better than the cheap ones but virtually the same quality as the $50 ones? I just don't want to waste money if it is not worth it but would like my pickups to sound as good as possible. I have converted a 70s sewing machine and the last step is to rig up a counter so I am basically ready to begin. I have a couple of cheap supposedly rough cast unoriented A5 magnets which were bought from ebay as well as a A2. Can anyone of you guys with experience let me know your findings and help me sift out the mythology. Like I said if the expensive magnets are night and day I would give it a shot just don't really know where to begin and who to buy from. Thanks in advance.

 

[beaubrummels]

The newbie questions are, is there a huge difference between these magnets?

Yes. They are different strengths, and unoriented have a different magnetic field. All which change the response of the pickup and its resultant sound. IME Humbuckers with A2 often tend to have a soft top-end, a hump in the mids, and weak, loose low end (however there are exceptions, like Pearly Gates and the '78 Model, which are quite bright and tighter on the low end - so how you wind the coils can compensate for the effect magnets have). With A3 they often tend to be weaker in output, similar sound as an A2-type, but a little more even and slightly brighter. With A4 they tend to be pretty even and sound a bit louder than A2-A3 types. With A5 tends to result in tighter low end, a scoop or attenuation of the mids, and bright top end. Unoriented A5 is similar to an A4, sounds somewhat in between an A2 and A5, has softer top end, the mids fill in a bit (as opposed to scooped). But the wire and winding pattern and tension matters, so using a particular magnet doesn't guarantee a particular sound, but it will tilt the sound in a particular direction.

Is there a $30 magnet that is much better than the cheap ones but virtually the same quality as the $50 ones?

I've never seen a magnet for pickups be more than $7-$10. Usually $5-$6.

I have a couple of cheap supposedly rough cast unoriented A5 magnets which were bought from ebay as well as a A2. Can anyone of you guys with experience let me know your findings and help me sift out the mythology.

The patent for humbuckers (https://patents.google.com/patent/US2896491A/en) doesn't spec a particular formulation, other than "permanent magnet." Following that, conventional wisdom is Gibson in the 50's used any stock they had on hand. There's been receipt evidence that Gibson purchased more A4s than other types, but there's no guarantee that same ratio is what made it's way into pickups. PAFs have been found with A2, A3, A4 and A5. When Seth Lover collaborated with Seymour Duncan to make a pickup matching the intent of the patent, they opted for A2, so that's worth considering. It's also worth noting that when the patent was granted, Gibson by that time was using A5, and I believe most or all were short bar A5. (Someone older than me will be along to correct me, if I misspoke on anything.)

 

[Clint 55]

Mags aren't that mythical. They have a big effect on the tone for cheap and so are very worth experimenting with, especially for a builder. Get all of the mags and figure out their sound. A2,3,4,5,UOA5,6,8,9. Then there's polished vs rough surface.

 

[jeremy]

its worth mentioning that one manufacturers a2 might not sound exactly the same as another but there are some basic tonal characteristics that seem to hold true regardless. there is good evidence that the paf pup had a2, a3, a4, and a5 magnets. probably all sand cast so not the perfectly polished that we see frequently today but if gibson could have gotten the polished mags like we have today for the same price, they woulda used em. there is no reason to spend $50 on a bar magnet unless you like wasting money and sniffing corks. i always got mine from allstar magnetics and have been very happy with them but i bought big batches so havent had to order in years

 

[ALBATROS1234]

Thanx for responses, That's kinda what I was thinking. I got some rough cast UO A5 for maybe $5 each and as I was looking around and see that they have all these vastly different prices from different sellers. I was wondering does it really make a huge or small difference. Specifically Throbak sells their magnets for $45. and I also saw a couple different sellers on ebay asking similar yet most are like you say $5 to $7. It makes a newbie wonder is this a small or large difference. Like wine, once you get to the $20 to $30 per bottle range you get small quality gains for a $40 to $50 bottle. So it ends up there is a big difference between a $10 and $25 bottle but not so much between $25 an $40. It does get slightly better for each $10 per bottle you spend but the improvement gets smaller the higher the price it seems. Now when you talk a $25 bottle vs $100 bottle there is a noticeable difference but not so much when it come to $25 to say $50. Just trying to make the best tone I can without wasting money on what is not really much better for the money.I guess I will experiment a bit . I was hoping someone would give me a name of a reputable seller that has reasonable prices.

 

[Clint 55]

You're much better off spending your money on all the different kinds for cheap rather than spending $200 for 2 A2s and 2A5s lol.

I just use ebay and look for whatever's cheapest for what I want. I haven't been happy with any individual sellers' prices and selection.

 

[eclecticsynergy]

I agree the difference between magnet types (A2 vs A5 vs UA5, etc.) is significant, with very few exceptions.
Especially when it comes to vintage-output pickups.

But while subtle differences might be perceptible between suppliers in certain cases (ThroBak had a special batch of A4 mags cast to duplicate a vintage alloy, and also offers A5s from two different foundries), IMO that's hardly worth paying ten times the price.

As stated upthread, Gibson used whatever was available and cheap. Regardless of that, those old pickups bring astronomical prices nowadays - even the short-magnet patent number humbuckers that all were wound exactly the same, without any of the random-coil tone magic that made every real PAF different.

For a vintagey sound & feel, I'd recommend your A2 for the neck and the roughcast UA5 for the bridge.
Still, a lot depends on winding, and the guitar they're going into. And on your own tastes in tone.

A3 might do better in the neck of a boomy guitar. Even in a tighter-voiced one, some prefer it for a more chimey neck tone.
A4 is fairly neutral, sort of vintage-dry, a bit less bouncy than UA5. Great choice for a lively axe with lots of individual personality.
One aspect of A4 that's mentioned less often: it really wakes up at volume, especially in bridge position.

The great luxury of pickup selection nowadays is, there's plenty of info available about magnet types and coil pairing.
We can be more particular and precise about choices to enhance the character of a specific individual guitar.
That just wasn't possible in the old days.

 

[Mincer]

A2 or RC A5 is always a good start. I wouldn't pay more than $10 total for them, though. I think the magnet is just one part.

 

[hamerfan]

The vast majority of magnets come from China, if you are willing to pay premium, you can get a US made magnet from the mythical sources for the 59 Gibson PAF. You have to decide...