master volume discussion

[rainsong86]

my band got a new bassist and as with all new musicians comes new gear to my house.. luckily this guy plays a Fender Bassman 50 (I've nailed it down to a '74-'76).. I love the overdrive and it's not loud at all to my mesa-prone ears, but I'd like to be able to get that sound in the middle of night without p/oing the neighbors.. would an amp of similar design with a Master Volume control (maybe a Fender Super Bassman 100) nail the overdriven tone I'm looking for?.. is it the fact that the Fender Bassman 50 is a non-master volume amp which makes it such a good amp to drive at 8-10 on the Volume knob???

 

[rainsong86]

Re: master volume discussion

item for further discussion: My Mesa Roadster has a Tweed mode in the first clean channel.. I know this is emulating '58-'60 narrow-panel Bassmans but I think it's pretty much the same thing as the BF/SF tone.. as far as overdrive goes I have four things at my disposal to set the amount of drive: channel volume, channel gain, master "output", and a 50/100 watt setting.. so far I'm thinking I should have it in 50 watt mode with the master output set rather high.. I've always wondered whether it would be better to have high channel volumes with a low master output (9-12 o clock), or low channel volumes with a high master output (12-3 o clock)

 

[Reckless Abandon]

Re: master volume discussion

Non MV amps sound different turned up than a MV amp with the master turned p the same level. The way the amp works. I am not familiar with the bassman so consider this a bump so other see you post

 

[rainsong86]

Re: master volume discussion

yea I kind of get where you're going.. so say there's a 50-watt amp with 2 designs: a master volume and a non-master volume design.. with the master volume DIMED, wouldn't the master volume amp sound close to the non-master volume amp?.. I've known people to mod their Bassman 50s with a master volume knob.. even Cesar Diaz did this to his "marshallized bassmans"

 

[Rich_S]

Re: master volume discussion

I remember trying a bass player's Bassman 50 for guitar years ago - great sounding amp. I think a lot of that amp's overdrive tone comes from the output stage, and you'd kill it with a master volume.

I think a Bassman 50 with an attentuator would be better than one modded with a master volume.

For years, I played a big Marshall (2203) with the preamp on 7 or 8 and the master below 2. I thought I had good tone, but know better now that I'm (much) older and wiser. Preamp overdrive and output stage overdrive are completely different things. Don't flame me for a really broad generalization, but preamp overdrive is the sound of post - 80's metal, while output stage overdrive is more the classic rock sound.

I now use a 18 Watter. I use the single control marked "Volume" the way we usually think of a preamp volume - to set the overall amount of dirt. Except that it's controlling preamp and output stage distortion together. Then I have a Weber Mini MASS mounted in the back that I used to adjust volume level - like how we WISH a master volume would really work. A Bassman 50 is a similar beast - its output stage needs to be working hard, with an attenuator to tame the volume.

 

[some_dude]

Re: master volume discussion

item for further discussion: My Mesa Roadster has a Tweed mode in the first clean channel.. I know this is emulating '58-'60 narrow-panel Bassmans but I think it's pretty much the same thing as the BF/SF tone.. as far as overdrive goes I have four things at my disposal to set the amount of drive: channel volume, channel gain, master "output", and a 50/100 watt setting.. so far I'm thinking I should have it in 50 watt mode with the master output set rather high.. I've always wondered whether it would be better to have high channel volumes with a low master output (9-12 o clock), or low channel volumes with a high master output (12-3 o clock)

To simulate a Bassman put it on 50w mode and dime the master volume while the gain is on zero. Then, slowly raise the gain until you achieve the desired level of volume and/or overdrive.

 

[Rich_S]

Re: master volume discussion

yea I kind of get where you're going.. so say there's a 50-watt amp with 2 designs: a master volume and a non-master volume design.. with the master volume DIMED, wouldn't the master volume amp sound close to the non-master volume amp?.. I've known people to mod their Bassman 50s with a master volume knob.. even Cesar Diaz did this to his "marshallized bassmans"

There are a lot of different MV designs out there. Some of them do a good job of getting out of the way when they are dimed, others still have an effect at 10.

The difference is not really whether an amp has an MV or not, it's where the overdrive is generated. Output stage distortion sounds different than preamp distortion. Unfortunately, once you dial in your MV (or single volume control on a non-MV amp) to set the level of overdrive, you have no control over volume. Turning it down to make it quieter also removes overdrive. There are really only two ways to get output stage overdrive at low volumes - use a small amp, or use an attentuator.

This is not to say that MV amps aren't useful. Having preamp and MV controls lets you adjust the mix of preamp and output overdrive, but you'll still need some way to control volume post-output stage.

 

[rainsong86]

Re: master volume discussion

yea I see where you're coming from rich.. those amps labelled "pre" and "post" are starting to make a lot more sense than the "gain" and "volume" labelled master volume amps

 

[drew_half_empty]

Re: master volume discussion

i've owned both, and they sound really really similar

so yes a mv bassman 100 should get you the tone you want

but stay away from the mv bassman 50's. the bass channel on them is useless

 

[rainsong86]

Re: master volume discussion

oh.. I didn't know 50 watt bassmans ever came with master volumes