Mids, mids, mids...

[Closed Eye]

I have no idea what they're for.
Everytime I turn them up my signal gets all muddy. With my amp settings put my mids at about 4, right along with the bass, and jack the treble up to about 6 or 7 (which the bass goes up to depending on what I'm playing).
I don't want that "scooped mids" metal sound, but that's usually what I end up getting...although it's involved into some kind of Garage Rock/Scooped Mids Metal sounds...which isn't bad, but I'd like to use those mids a little more. I love having my treble high, it sort of makes the amp into this loud obnoxious sounding thing that loves feedback (which I love), and I don't to get rid of that, but I do want to get a little less metal. The closest thing I can think of is that I want to move more into "Strokes-ish" sounding territory...not exactly like The Strokes, but that kind of thing...while keeping the treble/feeback thing...maybe I need two amps?
Anyway...
I suppose this is kind of two part question...1. What are mids for and how do I use them properly? and 2. Do I need to use mids to get "less metal"...
Any suggestions?

 

[Ken]

Re: Mids, mids, mids...

Back off the bass a little, and the treble as well. Bringing up the mids while compensate for both.



And (unless you can't stand it) take a break from your amp. Get some fresh ears, set the amp to a flat response (as well as you can approximate) and then start twisting all the knobs.

Also, what sort of axe and effects are in your rig?

 

[Seraphial]

Re: Mids, mids, mids...

Here's my bandmates theory on mids. I don't have the necessary vocab to describe what he's talking about, but I'll try to help.

On the tonal spectrum the bass and vocals cover a specific frequency, with each instrument covering the lows and highs respectively. He says a guitars frequency sits smack bang in the middle of it. That's how and why they built them. So when you scoop the mids (a V-shape on an EQ) you're taking out the frequencies that the guitar is supposed to push. Sounds about right - when I hear bands that scoop their mids it doesn't sound like a guitar eg Korn. Its all bass and treble.

My band plays classic rock, so there's a lot of mids floating around. We use Marshalls and Voxs. One thing I learned (and I don't know if I'm stating the obvious) it to put all settings at 12 oçlock, flick to the bridge pickup for rhythm and then fine-tune from there. My settings on my Marshall are usually 12 oçlock for bass and mids, and a little more for treble. I find my bridge C5 usually pushes the treble as well. With this for rhythm, there's usually a lot more cut through when you're playing - the bass and guiatr is well defined but supported, and you're not overpowering the singer. A good song IMO that supports this theory is Honky Tonk Woman by the Stones.

In answer to question 2, if you use less mids you're hading towards scooped metal territory. That's not always the case - just what I've found. Pushing the mids often defines my axe's sound.

 

[Closed Eye]

Re: Mids, mids, mids...

And (unless you can't stand it) take a break from your amp. Get some fresh ears, set the amp to a flat response (as well as you can approximate) and then start twisting all the knobs.

Great idea. I'll try it!
I was told that with most Marshalls (and this is what I did intially, it's an MG250DFX) just jack everything up to full and then twist back from there.
That advice worked and started get great sounds out of my amp, exactly the kind of stuff I was looking for, but since my tastes have changed the amp hasn't been able to keep up.

Also, what sort of axe and effects are in your rig?

I have two main guitars:
1. Fender MIM Stratocaster w/ Seymour Duncan '59 in the bridge
2. Ltd. Viper 100 w/ Seymour Duncan JB in the bridge

then I have a Yamaha Mike Stern Telecaster [low-end model, stock pickups] that I mess around with occasionally.

My effects are:
Boss DD-3 Digital Delay-> EH Small Stone->Boss DS-1->Dunlop Crybaby Wah

Although I'll soon be removing the Phaser to replace it with a Tremelo.

On the tonal spectrum the bass and vocals cover a specific frequency, with each instrument covering the lows and highs respectively. He says a guitars frequency sits smack bang in the middle of it. That's how and why they built them. So when you scoop the mids (a V-shape on an EQ) you're taking out the frequencies that the guitar is supposed to push. Sounds about right - when I hear bands that scoop their mids it doesn't sound like a guitar eg Korn. Its all bass and treble. .

That actually makes a lot of sense. I'd never really thought about it like that. Part of my problem may be that I'm not playing with a band yet...

One thing I learned (and I don't know if I'm stating the obvious) it to put all settings at 12 oçlock, flick to the bridge pickup for rhythm and then fine-tune from there. My settings on my Marshall are usually 12 oçlock for bass and mids, and a little more for treble. I find my bridge C5 usually pushes the treble as well. With this for rhythm, there's usually a lot more cut through when you're playing - the bass and guiatr is well defined but supported, and you're not overpowering the singer. A good song IMO that supports this theory is Honky Tonk Woman by the Stones.

In answer to question 2, if you use less mids you're hading towards scooped metal territory. That's not always the case - just what I've found. Pushing the mids often defines my axe's sound.

Two people have said use the 12 o'clock method; it must work!

The thing I don't like about the "scooped mids" is too much bass, and I kick the bass back as well most of the time...so, I dunno if the metal sound is from the pedals, pickups, or the amp itself.

Thanks for the help!
Anything else I should know about?

 

[Stevo]

Re: Mids, mids, mids...

Speakers have a huge influence on midrange response. Do you know what kind you have? I highly recommend greenbacks for good mid response, and the sound you are looking for.

I usually have my bass, mid and treble at 12:00 also. If you are cranking one of those then maybe you are trying to compensate for something that is missing somewhere else.

Welcome to the tone quest.. it never ends

 

[Duncan]

Re: Mids, mids, mids...

Great idea. I'll try it! ... it's an MG250DFX)

That actually makes a lot of sense. I'd never really thought about it like that. Part of my problem may be that I'm not playing with a band yet...

These are your two problems, as I see it. Firsly, the MG, while a really good cheap multi-purpose amp, is not something to build a quality sound around. It's a bit of a cliche, but you reallly need to base your sound around a good quality (usually) tube amp - for example, Marshall JCM800, or SuperLead, Vox AC30, Fender bassman, Mesa etc etc). It's not easy to work with developing a 'tone' when the amp you've got will struggle to get you there anyway...

Second, you'll find this when you start gigging, but what sounds really good on it's own in a bedroom when you're practicing, usually sounds like crap at gig volumes with a band. A couple of rules for a good gig sound, if you're playing, lets say, classic or hard rock...

1. Don;t scoop mids. As another poster has already said - mids define the guitar. You scoop the mids and your sound in a band mix will come across too bass heavy and muddy - it will basically get lost in the bass....

2. Dont overdo gain. We've all done it in the bedroom - it SOUNDS better when you crank the gain...Well in a band context, the opposite is usually true. I usually set my gain on my Marshalls so that when I roll the volume back and strum lightly, it's a pretty clean sound, that then gets crunchy when I dig into the strings a bit and roll the volume up. Trust me, if you listen to most guys you think are playing with a lot of gain, really listen to them, you'll realise they are actually playing with nowhere near as much as you'd think. Three obvious examples are Led Zep, Slash (nowhere near as high gain as evryone first thinks - have a good listen to the solos and riffs in Sweet Child, and you can tell that the gain is fairly low. It's just in a band setting, and at gig volumes it 'sounds' higher) and finally the Darkness. Have a listen to some of their tracks, particularly to Dan Hawkins, the rhythm player (mostly). Yeah the lead playes solos are pretty high gain, but listen to the rhythm stuff. Sounds pretty high gain, but it is mid-heavy and fairly low gain. THAT is what will get you a good gigging sound...

Just my 2cents worth...Hope it helps...

 

[proxy]

Re: Mids, mids, mids...

Duncan is right on.

 

[59paul]

Re: Mids, mids, mids...

YEP !!!! Also, listen to Angus Young. He has a very clean tone. Notice how well he gets through the mix ??? Everyone thinks they have to have tons of dirt to play his stuff, it's actually the other way around. The guy just sounds Incredible Live !!!!

 

[some_dude]

Re: Mids, mids, mids...

I particularily agree with lowing the gain solution. The higher you gain goes, the sloppier it can sound, unless you scoop you mids

Also, dipping your mids isn't the same a scooping them right out. Even if your mids are dipped slightly, there's still plenty of mids left in there. Your presence setting (if you have one) can have a big impact on this too.

One more point - as volume changes, so does the ears perception of the sound. At lower volumes I find you need to scoop your mids more to remove the tin sound and get a more plesant sound (hence the loudness button on many Hi-Fi stereos). As the volume increases, the ear becomes more and more reliant on midrange, so you can drop your highs and lows and boost your mids up and still get that plesant sound you had at lower volumes.

Plus, if the bass adds kick to your sound, it's the mids that give it it's punch.

 

[Duncan]

Re: Mids, mids, mids...

I particularily agree with lowing the gain solution. The higher you gain goes, the sloppier it can sound, unless you scoop you mids

Also, dipping your mids isn't the same a scooping them right out. Even if your mids are dipped slightly, there's still plenty of mids left in there. Your presence setting (if you have one) can have a big impact on this too.

One more point - as volume changes, so does the ears perception of the sound. At lower volumes I find you need to scoop your mids more to remove the tin sound and get a more plesant sound (hence the loudness button on many Hi-Fi stereos). As the volume increases, the ear becomes more and more reliant on midrange, so you can drop your highs and lows and boost your mids up and still get that plesant sound you had at lower volumes.

Plus, if the bass adds kick to your sound, it's the mids that give it it's punch.

Agree completely with this...

 

[Stevo]

Re: Mids, mids, mids...

but what sounds really good on it's own in a bedroom when you're practicing, usually sounds like crap at gig volumes with a band.

This is a very good point that seems to go ignored.

It's the same with trying out an amp in a music store. You don't really hear what it's got until you get some volume and get in the mix with other players.

 

[Closed Eye]

Re: Mids, mids, mids...

Woah.

That's quite a bit to think about.

I'll take all this into consideration, go home and mess around with my amp settings (the rig I mentioned is at home...I'm at university right now), and tell you all how things turn out. I'm going to try and upload "pre-this-thread" clips and "post-adjustment clips" if possible.
I'm already looking into getting a new amp, but was skeptical of dropping money into something new, and this just kind of legimated getting a new amp.

Again, thanks for the help Duncan, Ken, Seraphial, Steveo, screamingdaisy, 59Paul, and proxy ( I didn't forget anybody did I? ). This thread has been both informative and enlightening.

 

[Vasshu the humanoid typhoon]

Re: Mids, mids, mids...

Hmm I'm always having my mids way up on my Hiwatt and old Fender Bassmantop.
Otherwise they sound too undefined, the Fender simply dissapears in the mix if I dip the mids.
Some other amps I used to have had the mids located more up or down, or had nothing but high and low mids.
On my now sadly out of commision Park 75 I had the mids at 8-10 and the bass at 2, the highs was dialed in to what ever guitar I was using, or for a clean or more crunchy sound.
The Park/Marshall and Hiwatt seems to have that natural clearness that alot of modern amps lacks, they have that funny "crunchy" clean sound.
They simply fit in on a natural basis, there is nothing that I dislike more than tempramental amps that does not want get their sound out.

 

[y2stevo]

Re: Mids, mids, mids...

YEP !!!! Also, listen to Angus Young. He has a very clean tone. Notice how well he gets through the mix ??? Everyone thinks they have to have tons of dirt to play his stuff, it's actually the other way around. The guy just sounds Incredible Live !!!!

Thats exactly the band i thought of when i read Duncan's post.. AC/DC's gain is set quiet low, Angus uses basically 2 JCM800s and uses the gain from them, My DSLs Classic type overdrive nails that AC/DC tone, Its just amazing how the two youngs rhythym sounds so full and yet they have their gain quiet low, which is also what i like and can pretty much nail with the DSL...

Also the MG marshall series is great for a budget SS amp but if you want to find a great tone you will really have to look at tube amps like Duncan Stated...


Good Luck in your search!

 

[some_dude]

Re: Mids, mids, mids...

Oh oh oh - I forgot something.

If you keep you gain down, but mids up and your amp loud, the speakers will distort. You'll end up with a resonably clean (read: well defined) sound, with lots of mid punch, and plenty of speaker crunch.

But......Ya gotta play it loud :headbang:

In my opinion, speaker distortion is where the real crunch comes from.

 

[Vasshu the humanoid typhoon]

Re: Mids, mids, mids...

Yep the air needs movement...it is kind of logical as well

 

[Duncan]

Re: Mids, mids, mids...

Thats exactly the band i thought of .. AC/DC's gain is set quiet low, ... just amazing how the two youngs rhythym sounds so full and yet they have their gain quiet low,

Also the MG marshall series is great for a budget SS amp but if you want to find a great tone you will really have to look at tube amps!

ACDC is a really good and obvious example of what I was talking about tha I did omit (Opps!!!). REally good punch and drive, but overall a fairly low gain. Good examples are most of the Back in Black album and Highway to Hell, if you want a nice little introductory session on getting drive and punch with low gain (certain Led ep songs also fit in here - The Ocean, Out on the Tiles, The Rover, The Wanton Song etc etc - all really good punchy tunes with pretty low gain on the amp...)

 

[some_dude]

Re: Mids, mids, mids...

ACDC is a really good and obvious example of what I was talking about tha I did omit (Opps!!!). REally good punch and drive, but overall a fairly low gain. Good examples are most of the Back in Black album and Highway to Hell, if you want a nice little introductory session on getting drive and punch with low gain (certain Led ep songs also fit in here - The Ocean, Out on the Tiles, The Rover, The Wanton Song etc etc - all really good punchy tunes with pretty low gain on the amp...)

I get my best AC/DC tone by using my amps clean channel. I keep the preamp clean and slightly overdrive the power tubes.

 

[B2D]

Re: Mids, mids, mids...

My take on the whole thing...

1. Midrange is crucial to a guitar's tone. Guitars are midrange-dominant instruments, and the mid frequencies in a tone can make or break a sound.

2. Midrange controls are voiced with a certain frequency center and breadth in mind and when designing and amp that can often affect how the whole rig sounds. It can mean the difference between that airy singing sound of a Plexi or that farty crud of a Sound City stack. Often times major tone mods just revoce the mids in an amp.

3. Tone controls are interactive, ESPECIALLY in tube amps. Old Fenders and Marshalls are a great example of this. Like if you have everything set at 5 and you turn the treble up to 7 the mids and bass will still change a little. This can make dialing in sounds a bitch but once you hit that sweet spot you're there!

4. Speakers have a big effect too. Vintage 30's have a very different mid character than Greenbacks do.

... and just as a side note one of the reasons I LOVE my Boogie Rectoverb is that I can really crank the mids and the tone just sings and blooms and loosens up, rather than getting muffly or muddy. The Greenback-loaded Marshall cab I use with it helps complement this as well.