My cleans are great but gain sucks...what does this suggest?

[Young Angus]

Okay, on that new (second hand) mesa boogie .50 caliber + 112 combo i bought the cleans are great, but the gains are pretty awful...they just dont sound like a boogie apparently. I say apparently because i took it up to the local shop today to show a friend there because he was interested in playing through it, and he loved the cleans but he just couldnt understand why the distortions sounded like they did. He then showed me another boogie and told me that "the distortion just doesnt sound like a boogie", and when he turned on another boogie and put it on a gain channel i heard what he meant.

Could this suggest that the tubes are good in the power section and whatever section is being used for the cleans, but might be a big funny in the gain sections of the amp?

I hope this is the case as the preamp tubes are easy and cheap to replace....right? :nervous:

 

[flank]

Re: My cleans are great but gain sucks...what does this suggest?

man, i dont know the solution......but your high gain and distortion problems never seem to end lol

 

[Young Angus]

Re: My cleans are great but gain sucks...what does this suggest?

Tell me about it :grumble:

But i am new to valves, so i guess it comes with the territory...soon ill be a valve master muwhahahaha :sad:

 

[Duke of Metal]

Re: My cleans are great but gain sucks...what does this suggest?

What tubes (Pre and power) do you have in there now??


Duke

P.S. What happened to your ENGL??

 

[Young Angus]

Re: My cleans are great but gain sucks...what does this suggest?

The power amp tubes are JJ (i think) 6L6's, and the preamp tubes are ECC83's, im pretty sure they are anyway, they look like it but its hard to see them without pulling it to bits. It says on the back that there should be one 12at7 in the preamp stage (either v2 or v4, not sure which way it starts from), but i dont know if there is actually one of these in there, in fact ill check now.

 

[Young Angus]

Re: My cleans are great but gain sucks...what does this suggest?

Actually i think there is an ECC81 in the slot which is supposed to have a 12at7 in it, if thats the same thing? And i take it back i dont think the power tubes are JJ's, but i need to get a mirror or something to stick in there because the label is on the other side.

And i can see a couple of the preamp tubes actually say "mesa" on them.

 

[Young Angus]

Re: My cleans are great but gain sucks...what does this suggest?

Okay the power tubes are two Svetlana Electron Devices Inc. 6L6GC's, and the pre amp tubes say "mesa 12ax7a ECC83" and the one in the 12at7 slot i think says ECC81 (thats all i can see of that one).

 

[Duke of Metal]

Re: My cleans are great but gain sucks...what does this suggest?

Ok.. Svetlana tubes are good. I use JJ 6L6s and couldnt be happier.

ECC81 are lower gain tubes then ECC83(12ax7s). Mesa tubes are nothing but relabled Sovtek I think.

How old are the tubes? Any idea?

Whats the rest of your rig??

also, reason being you dont seem to have good gain is because the tubes might not be highgain graded and could be just off the shelf tubes which could really varry in gain.


Duke

 

[Young Angus]

Re: My cleans are great but gain sucks...what does this suggest?

I dont really have a rest of rig, its just that amp that im tinkering with at the moment, nothing more.

I think this amp is supposed to have some pretty mean gain that i can dial in, i rekon the tubes could be pretty old as this isnt a very new amp. Werent they around in the 80's or something? I dont think the previous owner knew how old the tubes were, he certainly didnt change them himself and i didnt ask how long he had it for before selling it to me.

 

[Duke of Metal]

Re: My cleans are great but gain sucks...what does this suggest?

I dont really have a rest of rig, its just that amp that im tinkering with at the moment, nothing more.

I think this amp is supposed to have some pretty mean gain that i can dial in, i rekon the tubes could be pretty old as this isnt a very new amp. Werent they around in the 80's or something? I dont think the previous owner knew how old the tubes were, he certainly didnt change them himself and i didnt ask how long he had it for before selling it to me.

To my knowledge (I could be wrong), I dont think the Caliber series where made with in your face metal type of distortion. I think its more sorta 80s type distortion.

Also, if your not sure how old the tubes are and the last owner wasnt sure either, then it might be a good idea to change the tubes to be sure. If you want highgain, then highgain graded tubes might help solve your issue.

How many preamp tubes does it have?? and how many for power??

Also, for preamp tubes, how many are for preamp section, how many for Phase Invertor? reverb? loop??


Duke

 

[Young Angus]

Re: My cleans are great but gain sucks...what does this suggest?

Im not sure about any of that, but i do know that i dont want in your face metal distortion, just smooth mesa distortion...at the moment its harsh and just crap sounding...just plain wrong!

It has two of the 6L6GC's for power and there are five little tubes (four 12ax7's and one 12at7), but i dont know if any of the little ones are used for power (i wouldnt think so) and i dont know whats used for phase inversion (i dont even know what that is...what is it?) or reverb.

 

[Duke of Metal]

Re: My cleans are great but gain sucks...what does this suggest?

ok.. I checked the mesaboogie website and checked the manual for the amp:
http://www.mesaboogie.com/manuals/50 Caliber Plus.pdf

It says that V1,V2,V3 need 12ax7 tubes for the preamp section and V4 needs a 12at7 for the reverb. See, in most amps (if not all), V1 makes the biggest difference.

Maybe new tubes would help better?? After all.. mesa tubes are nothing but relabled and tested Sovtek tubes. If you do decide to order new tubes, get the following:

preamp tubes:
V1 - 12ax7 Highgain graded at 110mu or higher (for highgain) with Matched Triodes
V2 - 12ax7 Highgain graded at 110mu or higher (for highgain) with Matched Triodes
V2 - 12ax7 Highgain graded at 110mu or higher (for highgain) with Matched Triodes
V4 - 12at7.

Power Tubes:
JJ 6L6GCs Matched.

if you want to order all JJs, get them from Bob at www.eurotubes.com, if you want to order different types of tubes (EHs and JJs), then order them from Doug at www.dougstubes.com.

I always order from Doug and he's never let me down on tubes.

Also.. what happened to your ENGL??


Duke

 

[Duke of Metal]

Re: My cleans are great but gain sucks...what does this suggest?

Im not sure about any of that, but i do know that i dont want in your face metal distortion, just smooth mesa distortion...at the moment its harsh and just crap sounding...just plain wrong!

It has two of the 6L6GC's for power and there are five little tubes (four 12ax7's and one 12at7), but i dont know if any of the little ones are used for power (i wouldnt think so) and i dont know whats used for phase inversion (i dont even know what that is...what is it?) or reverb.

oh.. 5 preamp tubes?? then I guess 3 are for preamp, 1 for phase invertor and 1 for reverb.

You always need Driver (Phase Invertor) tube(s) in an all tube poweramp.


Duke

 

[Young Angus]

Re: My cleans are great but gain sucks...what does this suggest?

Well the ENGL just needs a retube (i hope) but i havent got around to doing it yet. Im currently getting quotes on sets of tubes for it and its the first thing on my list after i pay off a gibson es137 that ive layby'd, and the layby will run out soon so ive gotta pay it off. But yeah ill let you (and everyone else) know what happens to that ENGL after i retube it, i think some of the tubes are shot. I know that when i tap one of its (ENGL) power tubes it makes an echo and someone said this means its microphonic and has gone bad. But going by what ive heard a good retube should fix it.

As far as retubes go with the mesa, i really love the clean sound i get at the moment and dont want to change it...will getting new tubes change it much, or more of a concern will it worsen it. At the moment its nice and fat and warm and sweet.

After i pay off this guitar which shouldnt take too long ill be able to get into retubing these amps pretty quickly.

Funny thing, i actually asked Bob at eurotubes about replacement tubes for my ENGL and he told me to get all JJ's. He seems very wrapped in JJ tubes which i found funny, and i dont know a single thing about what tubes are better than what except what ive read, and from what he says the JJ tubes that he sells are pretty awesome anyway, but is he for real that they are actually head and shoulders above the rest (like he says) or is he just a bit of a bias JJ lover. And thats a serious question to you im not having a go at him or anything, but he seems to think that JJ's beat everything else and thats not what many other people think.

 

[Duke of Metal]

Re: My cleans are great but gain sucks...what does this suggest?

Well.. Bob does work at www.eurotubes.com, the maker of JJ tubes. So obviously he's gonna recommend JJs tubes :laugh2:

If you dont want to spend alot of cash on tubes, then get either EH12ax7s or JJECC83S for preamp tubes (highgain graded) and for power tubes, get JJs.

the JJ preamp tubes have a bit more output then EHs, thats why I like using them for Phase Invertor sockets, but the EHs seem to have this crunchier sound to my ear and arent dark like the JJ preamp tubes.

To be honest, I think you should have used the money to retube (and fix if needed)the ENGL instead of buying the Mesa amp. ENGL amps are far better then Mesa and definitly better sounding. Remember, stock tubes arent always as great as companies say they are when shipped with the amp.


Duke

 

[Young Angus]

Re: My cleans are great but gain sucks...what does this suggest?

I had to pick up this mesa combo though, it was a steal

It will all be sorted with time, im currently working as much as i can to pay for all this stuff, and learning a bit along the way which is good. I wanted and needed a small valve combo though for my jazzy stuff, cos i dont think ill be dragging an ENGL head and quadbox around to small jazz gigs if i can help it, and rehearsals. This mesa just came up and i had to have it

 

[Duke of Metal]

Re: My cleans are great but gain sucks...what does this suggest?

Well.. thats was the same thing for me. I run rack gear and I used a 412 for a while and then thought that what am I gonna do when I go to play at small places?? I sold the 412 and got a 212 and to be honest, I couldnt be happier with it.

Its loud enough for the other band members to hear me. besides, every gig we play, the amps (guitar & bass) get miced, so i never had a problem with being heard by people either.


Duke

 

[Young Angus]

Re: My cleans are great but gain sucks...what does this suggest?

Ill definitely use the quadbox for rocky gigs which i plan on getting some of, i am a rocker too (hence the ENGL), but for the smaller jazzy bluesy (whatever) gigs i love this little mesa, its cleans anyway...i have yet to hear its proper gain sounds i think (according to the person who told me today).

What sort of amps are you running when you talk about you going from a 412 to a 212?

 

[Duke of Metal]

Re: My cleans are great but gain sucks...what does this suggest?

Ill definitely use the quadbox for rocky gigs which i plan on getting some of, i am a rocker too (hence the ENGL), but for the smaller jazzy bluesy (whatever) gigs i love this little mesa, its cleans anyway...i have yet to hear its proper gain sounds i think (according to the person who told me today).

What sort of amps are you running when you talk about you going from a 412 to a 212?

I run the following setup:

ADA MP-1 3Tube Modded & Custom Modded
ADA MQ-1 Programmable EQ (In MP-1 loop)
Rocktron Intellifex
Peavey Classic 60/60

The 412 I used to run was a Yorkville with celestion 75s. You can check a picture of it on my website. I sold that cause it was a hasle and got the 212 version of it with Celestion G12M70s. Both of my Preamp and Poweramp are tube.

I play in an all covers band and at the same time at home I write my own songs (Heavy Metal) for my own little project I want to record later. I can setup up to 128 different sounds on my ADA MP-1 from everything Crystal Cleans to Heavy Metal/Thrash Metal sounds.


Duke

 

[Young Angus]

Re: My cleans are great but gain sucks...what does this suggest?

Sounds cool, i gotta hear a clip of you one of these days.