neck pickups with 24 fret guitars
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Sequanselar
New member
Re: neck pickups with 24 fret guitars
I don't know about Clearer, but it should sound brighter.
Did you realize the 24th fret harmonic is the same one as the 5th fret harmonic? so it would end up being brighter.
I don't know about Clearer, but it should sound brighter.
Did you realize the 24th fret harmonic is the same one as the 5th fret harmonic? so it would end up being brighter.
7th Hell
New member
Re: neck pickups with 24 fret guitars
Wow- you're talking about a half an inch at the most! I think the tone would be brighter (as you move towards the bridge), but I'm pretty sure that the difference would be undetectable to the human ear! It might sound clearer if you cleaned out all the wax from your inner ear too! How about rolling back the gain a little on your amp? Einstein busted his ass trying to prove that it's all relative!
Wow- you're talking about a half an inch at the most! I think the tone would be brighter (as you move towards the bridge), but I'm pretty sure that the difference would be undetectable to the human ear! It might sound clearer if you cleaned out all the wax from your inner ear too! How about rolling back the gain a little on your amp? Einstein busted his ass trying to prove that it's all relative!
Sequanselar
New member
Re: neck pickups with 24 fret guitars
depends on who's ear...
Some people swear that a cover makes a pup sound brighter. I'd think the 24 fret issue would be about like having a cover. It has to do something, everything has an effect on everything else.
depends on who's ear...
Some people swear that a cover makes a pup sound brighter. I'd think the 24 fret issue would be about like having a cover. It has to do something, everything has an effect on everything else.
tone4days
Heel Whacker
Re: neck pickups with 24 fret guitars
you gotta be careful ... simply being closer to the bridge will not in and of itself result in a brighter sound ... the 24th fret represents a 'node' in the vibrations of a properly intonated guitar ... the pattern of fundemental and harmonic vibrations are highly sensitive as one approaches a node ... you'll have to experiment some to find out the particular effects on sound to your taste
good luck
t4d
ps - i'd be interested to read Robert_S's (and knowledgable others) experiences with 24 fret guitars and tonal properties of neck pups as compared to those of 22 fret guitars ... if you have a moment, would you enlighten us ? ...thanks in advance
you gotta be careful ... simply being closer to the bridge will not in and of itself result in a brighter sound ... the 24th fret represents a 'node' in the vibrations of a properly intonated guitar ... the pattern of fundemental and harmonic vibrations are highly sensitive as one approaches a node ... you'll have to experiment some to find out the particular effects on sound to your taste
good luck
t4d
ps - i'd be interested to read Robert_S's (and knowledgable others) experiences with 24 fret guitars and tonal properties of neck pups as compared to those of 22 fret guitars ... if you have a moment, would you enlighten us ? ...thanks in advance
mongrollo
New member
Re: neck pickups with 24 fret guitars
I agree. If you hit the string around the 24 freet while you are playing around the 12 freet the guitar adquires a very special tone. If you want to capture it you better have you pickup under the 24 fret (or where the 24 fret should be). This can be percibed with the other pickups (middle/bridge) but this effect increases with the neck pickup and it gets bigger if the pickup it is under the 24 fret.
tone4days said:you gotta be careful ... simply being closer to the bridge will not in and of itself result in a brighter sound ... the 24th fret represents a 'node' in the vibrations of a properly intonated guitar ... the pattern of fundemental and harmonic vibrations are highly sensitive as one approaches a node ... you'll have to experiment some to find out the particular effects on sound to your taste
good luck
t4d
ps - i'd be interested to read Robert_S's (and knowledgable others) experiences with 24 fret guitars and tonal properties of neck pups as compared to those of 22 fret guitars ... if you have a moment, would you enlighten us ? ...thanks in advance
I agree. If you hit the string around the 24 freet while you are playing around the 12 freet the guitar adquires a very special tone. If you want to capture it you better have you pickup under the 24 fret (or where the 24 fret should be). This can be percibed with the other pickups (middle/bridge) but this effect increases with the neck pickup and it gets bigger if the pickup it is under the 24 fret.
Lightning
New member
Re: neck pickups with 24 fret guitars
The human ear can only discern the fundamental and the first 120 harmonics on the harmonic series. So if you divide the length from the 12th fret to the bridge by 121 you could use a marker on a string to plot the nodes. Sounds cool but the you need to do it for each harmonic which sounds like a lot of work to me. I read somewhere (Forest Wright? Not sure) that Leo actually did this to find the placement for strat pickups. Ok science, ear, or necessity...look at the SG, the pickup is located where a 24 fret guitar's neck pickup is located. I do not know if the node refers to the point of highest side to side transverse of the string (for a given harmonic) or if it is the point where the oscillation crosses "0" and there is no oscillation. If you do not believe this phenomena exist play your guitar and switch between the neck and bridge pick up. I didn't mean to insult anyone by that statement but I've had 4 year music theory grads fight me on this issue...I learned it in electronics engineering. Ok if it is only 4 inches between centers of LP pickups and 3 1/2 between centers of a 24 fret then just math would tell you there is a 12 1/2 percent difference in the sound that will come out of your amp.
Bill Lawrence said probably the best pickup anyone could make would have 6 coils, each coil running from the end of the neck to the bridge so that it would pickup all the nodes...now that would be a balanced pickup? By the way that was his justification of why he built the P90 wider than other single coils of the day. All nodes end at the bridge so I would think piezo bridge pieces would give the most balanced and non colored (look at the sloppy low harmonic wide transverse vibrating going on at the neck pickup) representation of what's actually happening on the strings. When you chose one pickup over another that was your decision to mask out certain harmonics to hear others that you find more pleasing just like I like 24 fret/SG spacing for slide work.
I bought a 24 fret guitar built with the same woods as a LP (slightly different shape) and the same pickup in that has been in 2 LPs was a disappointment in that guitar (I wanted a 24 fret LP).
The human ear can only discern the fundamental and the first 120 harmonics on the harmonic series. So if you divide the length from the 12th fret to the bridge by 121 you could use a marker on a string to plot the nodes. Sounds cool but the you need to do it for each harmonic which sounds like a lot of work to me. I read somewhere (Forest Wright? Not sure) that Leo actually did this to find the placement for strat pickups. Ok science, ear, or necessity...look at the SG, the pickup is located where a 24 fret guitar's neck pickup is located. I do not know if the node refers to the point of highest side to side transverse of the string (for a given harmonic) or if it is the point where the oscillation crosses "0" and there is no oscillation. If you do not believe this phenomena exist play your guitar and switch between the neck and bridge pick up. I didn't mean to insult anyone by that statement but I've had 4 year music theory grads fight me on this issue...I learned it in electronics engineering. Ok if it is only 4 inches between centers of LP pickups and 3 1/2 between centers of a 24 fret then just math would tell you there is a 12 1/2 percent difference in the sound that will come out of your amp.
Bill Lawrence said probably the best pickup anyone could make would have 6 coils, each coil running from the end of the neck to the bridge so that it would pickup all the nodes...now that would be a balanced pickup? By the way that was his justification of why he built the P90 wider than other single coils of the day. All nodes end at the bridge so I would think piezo bridge pieces would give the most balanced and non colored (look at the sloppy low harmonic wide transverse vibrating going on at the neck pickup) representation of what's actually happening on the strings. When you chose one pickup over another that was your decision to mask out certain harmonics to hear others that you find more pleasing just like I like 24 fret/SG spacing for slide work.
I bought a 24 fret guitar built with the same woods as a LP (slightly different shape) and the same pickup in that has been in 2 LPs was a disappointment in that guitar (I wanted a 24 fret LP).
tone4days
Heel Whacker
Re: neck pickups with 24 fret guitars
a node is the point where the oscillation crosses "0" and there is no oscillation ... this is the reason we hear the 'octave up' sound from the open string note when we lightly touch the string at the 12th fret .. we damp the fundemental at the node and let only half the string (e.g. twice the frequency) vibrate
nodes end at the bridge, so piezo bridge pieces give the least balanced and least "harmonic-enriched' representation of what's actually happening on the strings ... that is why it is the BEST place to convert pitch to midi (less harmonic 'confusion' to mess up the tracking)
cheers,
t4d
a node is the point where the oscillation crosses "0" and there is no oscillation ... this is the reason we hear the 'octave up' sound from the open string note when we lightly touch the string at the 12th fret .. we damp the fundemental at the node and let only half the string (e.g. twice the frequency) vibrate
nodes end at the bridge, so piezo bridge pieces give the least balanced and least "harmonic-enriched' representation of what's actually happening on the strings ... that is why it is the BEST place to convert pitch to midi (less harmonic 'confusion' to mess up the tracking)
cheers,
t4d
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Lightning
New member
Re: neck pickups with 24 fret guitars
Tone4,
I've heard it referred to as the bridge is where all nodes end which would mean the node is inclusive of the up and down ramp but…OK just looked it up in the dictionary. Zero is right but the down ramp is inclusive in the term based on context. Note that Bill Lawrence said "all nodes would be included"...can you see my confusion. I agree with your point that the bridge is big zero but the point that I was making and I probably shouldn't have used the piezo as the reference is that the point right in front of the bridge is the most harmonically rich (this I'm sure of), so I feel the midi pickups placement is due to reduced transverse (this I'm not sure of). Check your PM
Tone4,
I've heard it referred to as the bridge is where all nodes end which would mean the node is inclusive of the up and down ramp but…OK just looked it up in the dictionary. Zero is right but the down ramp is inclusive in the term based on context. Note that Bill Lawrence said "all nodes would be included"...can you see my confusion. I agree with your point that the bridge is big zero but the point that I was making and I probably shouldn't have used the piezo as the reference is that the point right in front of the bridge is the most harmonically rich (this I'm sure of), so I feel the midi pickups placement is due to reduced transverse (this I'm not sure of). Check your PM
Lightning
New member
Re: neck pickups with 24 fret guitars
Yes Fan, More. Your probably saying that cause you are accustom to chiming on the fret (above the fret) but if you run your finger down a string chiming it you will find more in between the frets. If you want to see them lye back in a dark room with your guitar neck/string in line of sight of a TV at a distance of about 15 feet. As programming on the TV changes you will see the nodes appear and disappear on the vibrating string. Just like looking directly at a string vibrating in good light the fundamental is visually dominant but knowing that you are looking for the smaller elliptical patterns (with the TV trick) you'll see them. Don't try to identify them in order, the rate that the lines of information appear on the TV screen could cause even the fundamental (large pattern from the nut to the bridge) to disappear or only half of it's side to side transverse to be seen, it will jump from one harmonic to another based on program material on the TV. I bet a stobe light would work too.
Yes Fan, More. Your probably saying that cause you are accustom to chiming on the fret (above the fret) but if you run your finger down a string chiming it you will find more in between the frets. If you want to see them lye back in a dark room with your guitar neck/string in line of sight of a TV at a distance of about 15 feet. As programming on the TV changes you will see the nodes appear and disappear on the vibrating string. Just like looking directly at a string vibrating in good light the fundamental is visually dominant but knowing that you are looking for the smaller elliptical patterns (with the TV trick) you'll see them. Don't try to identify them in order, the rate that the lines of information appear on the TV screen could cause even the fundamental (large pattern from the nut to the bridge) to disappear or only half of it's side to side transverse to be seen, it will jump from one harmonic to another based on program material on the TV. I bet a stobe light would work too.
Re: neck pickups with 24 fret guitars
i dont know if ive ever heard of some one saying a cover makes a pup brighter, usually taking off the cover makes it brighter.
for those of you that dont think the neck pup placement makes a difference, play a prs custom 22 then a custom 24. the pups are different but similar enough for thhe comparison
Sequanselar said:
i dont know if ive ever heard of some one saying a cover makes a pup brighter, usually taking off the cover makes it brighter.
for those of you that dont think the neck pup placement makes a difference, play a prs custom 22 then a custom 24. the pups are different but similar enough for thhe comparison
Re: neck pickups with 24 fret guitars
fftopic:
Hahaha - don't know why, but this tickled me for some reason :laugh2:
I'll be sure to hand out the cotton buds next time I get to play a gig :biglaugh:
I don't think you're being too ridiculous on the wax thing actually - unfortunately I have eczema inside my ears which causes the wax to harden up over my ear drum sometimes (occasionally leaves me deaf in one ear or the other, sometimes both
), and my set-up does seem to sound different then. Usually quieter, which is the excuse I'll use next time the cops ask me to turn my amp down 
fftopic:7th Hell said:
Hahaha - don't know why, but this tickled me for some reason :laugh2:
7th Hell said:
I'll be sure to hand out the cotton buds next time I get to play a gig :biglaugh:
I don't think you're being too ridiculous on the wax thing actually - unfortunately I have eczema inside my ears which causes the wax to harden up over my ear drum sometimes (occasionally leaves me deaf in one ear or the other, sometimes both
), and my set-up does seem to sound different then. Usually quieter, which is the excuse I'll use next time the cops ask me to turn my amp down Re: neck pickups with 24 fret guitars
All the nodal analysis stuff is correct, that 24th fret harmonic is a vital part of the neck pup tone, most neck positions on 24 fret guitars just don't sound quite right ... not that there is any law that says that you have to have it, but general consensus is that having a coil under that 24 fret harmonic seems to be more popular sound wise ... maybe one reason why 21/22 fret guiatars are a bit more popular than 24 frets (and I realize that's a subjective statement at best, but it does seem to bear out). Most pups slightly up seem not to be a bit brighter , but more like they are lacking something,with a bit more midrange thrown in. That's the way I hear it at least, but hey FWIW.
All the nodal analysis stuff is correct, that 24th fret harmonic is a vital part of the neck pup tone, most neck positions on 24 fret guitars just don't sound quite right ... not that there is any law that says that you have to have it, but general consensus is that having a coil under that 24 fret harmonic seems to be more popular sound wise ... maybe one reason why 21/22 fret guiatars are a bit more popular than 24 frets (and I realize that's a subjective statement at best, but it does seem to bear out). Most pups slightly up seem not to be a bit brighter , but more like they are lacking something,with a bit more midrange thrown in. That's the way I hear it at least, but hey FWIW.
dr.barlo
New member
Re: neck pickups with 24 fret guitars
There is a very noticable difference, a neck HB in a LP type guitar with 24 fret sounds brighter more defined (strat like if you will) than that on a 22-fret guitar. Frankly speaking I don't like the tone out of that 24 neck position. I find myself decreasing the tone on the guitar to make it at least sound more like regular good old neck HB tone.
I went through a bunch of SD and other pickups to get that a2 22fret neck HB tone out of a 24 fret guitar. PGns, PGbs, 59ns, A2pbs, A2pns, ant necks,... None of them solved the problem. Ended up getting a custom wound HB from Tim White, specifically for that 24 fret neck position. More bass, less definition less highs. He did it! I have been happy ever since.
I am not saying it sounds exactly like a 22fret neck HB, yet the closest I have ever heard so far. That man has a very long waiting list, thus it would be a great idea to contact SD custom shop. I am sure that could come up with something like that. In fact, I would be surprised if such a request was not placed before.
B
There is a very noticable difference, a neck HB in a LP type guitar with 24 fret sounds brighter more defined (strat like if you will) than that on a 22-fret guitar. Frankly speaking I don't like the tone out of that 24 neck position. I find myself decreasing the tone on the guitar to make it at least sound more like regular good old neck HB tone.
I went through a bunch of SD and other pickups to get that a2 22fret neck HB tone out of a 24 fret guitar. PGns, PGbs, 59ns, A2pbs, A2pns, ant necks,... None of them solved the problem. Ended up getting a custom wound HB from Tim White, specifically for that 24 fret neck position. More bass, less definition less highs. He did it! I have been happy ever since.
I am not saying it sounds exactly like a 22fret neck HB, yet the closest I have ever heard so far. That man has a very long waiting list, thus it would be a great idea to contact SD custom shop. I am sure that could come up with something like that. In fact, I would be surprised if such a request was not placed before.
B
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Hardtailed
New member
Re: neck pickups with 24 fret guitars
All that talk is interesting, but let's put things into perspectives: as soon as you're not playing the open string or on the 12th fret, that "node" on the 24th fret is not on the 24th fret anymore, so positioning your pickup in function of that is pretty much a waste of time...
All that talk is interesting, but let's put things into perspectives: as soon as you're not playing the open string or on the 12th fret, that "node" on the 24th fret is not on the 24th fret anymore, so positioning your pickup in function of that is pretty much a waste of time...
Re: neck pickups with 24 fret guitars
Yeah, but all the other harmonic fractions are still shifted by the same amount ... so it's not just isolated to the 24th fret harmonic ... It's the entire shift that we are referreing to here, and that changes the entire tone regardless of what notes are played. Now if you can, like dr.barlo, find a pup that you're happy with in that *forwarded* position, then great ... on darker sounding guitars that slightly forward position can be used to advantage also; again I'll say... the tone change and accented harmonic fractions aren't just related to certain positions.Hardtailed said:
Lightning
New member
Re: neck pickups with 24 fret guitars
Previously posted in post 10. Ok if it is only 4 inches between centers of LP pickups and 3 1/2 between centers of a 24 fret then just math would tell you there is a 12 1/2 percent difference in the sound that will come out of your amp. I have no problem hearing the difference.
Previously posted in post 10. Ok if it is only 4 inches between centers of LP pickups and 3 1/2 between centers of a 24 fret then just math would tell you there is a 12 1/2 percent difference in the sound that will come out of your amp. I have no problem hearing the difference.
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Re: neck pickups with 24 fret guitars
Even though this has been answered, I'm going to add something ... the harmonic nodes can be manipulated by string length ... First just finger different nodal points gives you your harmonics ... this is what happens when you hit your 12th,9th,5th,and 4th (kind) harmonics. Now, finger the first fret, and pick those same harmonics over the 13th,10th,6th,and 5th (kinda) frets ... by moving the fingering of the harmonics you've kept the same relationship to the fundemental as it moved (+1oct., P5th from that,+2oct.,M3rd from that). So the intervals sound the same harmonic intervals. Now then finger the second fret,pick the harmonic over the 7th fret ... what note is it ... that's right its +2octs from the fundmental, not a 5th above the +1oct. The point is that there is harmonic node or partial node that is accented somewhere along that string at any given point in relation to any given note fretted or open ... we tend to be able to hear more harmonics when a string is wound and open, as well as under higher tension as the upper harmonics tend to ring longer, and hold there relative levels longer in the sustain. It similar to picking over any section of string strum over the fingerboard ala Keith Richards and you'll get this really full soft sound accenting the lower harmonics as well as the even ordered ones, strum back in front of the bridge (or pick in front of the saddles) and you get an instant Sitar meets Koto sound, suitable for driving people nuts (upper harmonics, and odd ordered ones) ... the point was not that the pup placement includes a 24fret harmonic, that was only a reference, the point was that that pup sense the different harmonics that are accented (again this was said) just as does picking in various places on the string length,the harmonics that occur toward the middle of the effective string length are the loudest, and closer related to the fundmental ... influences the tone more so than the ones moving closer to the bridge side [the fretting hand is muting the other side,as well as note having pups mounted on the fingerboard itself] being farther related from the fundmental as well as being lower in volume, therefore tending to contribute less to the overall tone. Again the 24th fret harmonic was citied only as a reference.yes-fan said:
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