Need bridge pickup help

[ToolmasterOfBrainerd]

This is for a HSS guitar (500k pots). The singles are a classic stack in the neck and a custom stack in the middle. I'll be using the bridge pickup for anything from medium gain classic rock to high gain metal chugging and soloing. No clean tones on the bridge. Output-wise, I'm trying to balance the bridge output with the output of the neck and middle in series.

I started with a JB in the bridge. It's like there's a frequency buildup in the mids (upper mids?) between the guitar and the pickup and the end result is a very buzzy sound. Not full and rich. I'm sure it would cut through a mix, but it's not a good sound.

Then I tried a Duncan Custom. It sounds best to me with the pickup super high, which makes the output super high. I love whatever the low end of the pickup is doing to the sound and the overall percussiveness. With high gain, it sounds fantastic. However, as I turn the gain down, the pickup sounds super flat. Kind of like the tone knob is on 3. I can live with it, but I'd love something more lively with medium gain sounds.

Then I pulled the A5 from the JB and put that in the Custom to make a Custom 5. The frequency buildup problem of the JB came back. I switched back to the ceramic magnet very quickly.

Across all 3, I'm missing high frequencies. It's like the pickups are low-passed and the low-pass frequency is too low. I am getting enough upper mids, but not enough highs. Any recommendations of what to try next to get some more highs? If I could get exactly the Duncan Custom, but lower output and less high-end roll off, I'd be very happy.

Screamin Demon? Perpetual Burn? Pegasus? 59/Custom hybrid with a ceramic magnet?

 

[Clint 55]

Yes, those are good ideas. As you go down in output, you'll get more highs. Don't sleep on vintage output either as those will have the most highs.

 

[ehdwuld]

This is for a HSS guitar (500k pots). The singles are a classic stack in the neck and a custom stack in the middle. I'll be using the bridge pickup for anything from medium gain classic rock to high gain metal chugging and soloing. No clean tones on the bridge. Output-wise, I'm trying to balance the bridge output with the output of the neck and middle in series.

I started with a JB in the bridge. It's like there's a frequency buildup in the mids (upper mids?) between the guitar and the pickup and the end result is a very buzzy sound. Not full and rich. I'm sure it would cut through a mix, but it's not a good sound.

Then I tried a Duncan Custom. It sounds best to me with the pickup super high, which makes the output super high. I love whatever the low end of the pickup is doing to the sound and the overall percussiveness. With high gain, it sounds fantastic. However, as I turn the gain down, the pickup sounds super flat. Kind of like the tone knob is on 3. I can live with it, but I'd love something more lively with medium gain sounds.

Then I pulled the A5 from the JB and put that in the Custom to make a Custom 5. The frequency buildup problem of the JB came back. I switched back to the ceramic magnet very quickly.

Across all 3, I'm missing high frequencies. It's like the pickups are low-passed and the low-pass frequency is too low. I am getting enough upper mids, but not enough highs. Any recommendations of what to try next to get some more highs? If I could get exactly the Duncan Custom, but lower output and less high-end roll off, I'd be very happy.

Screamin Demon? Perpetual Burn? Pegasus? 59/Custom hybrid with a ceramic magnet?

you pulled the A5 Magnet from the JB and put in the hotter Ceramic Magnet of the custom

put the A5 back in the JB
the JB is very sensitve to where it sits under the strings

about 1/8 inch (3mm) below the strings = sweet spot
hair metal for days

the ceramic is way too hot
that hump you hear will go away when you get it in the sweet spot
1/8 inch or 3 mm under the strings

you will know when you hear it
you can thank me later

 

[Mincer]

I'd think a 59/Custom Hybrid would be perfect.

 

[freefrog]

Across all 3, I'm missing high frequencies. It's like the pickups are low-passed and the low-pass frequency is too low. I am getting enough upper mids, but not enough highs. Any recommendations of what to try next to get some more highs?

The fact that you've the same feeling with 3 different (and well known) pickups suggests to me that the problem might be elsewhere...

What cable (brand and length) are you using between your guitar and its first host ?

And what is this "first host"? A wireless system? A pedal? The input of an amp? Do you know its input impedance? This 2d question is less important than the first one but might affect the tone as well.

 

[beaubrummels]

Unconventional idea, but I might be tempted to put a resistor on the Custom to lower it's volume in line with the singles but keep it in the sweet spot of the strings.

Demon or 59/Custom, as-is, might be good solutions also.

IMO the mods you've been doing aren't the right ones to solve your problem. Custom 5 is scooped. I'm surprised you got any mid-build up with a C5. And tone on 3 isn't flat, so I'm having trouble understanding what your actual issue is, guitar, body, wiring, amp, etc. I agree with FreeFrog, your problem could be something else.

 

[ToolmasterOfBrainerd]

you pulled the A5 Magnet from the JB and put in the hotter Ceramic Magnet of the custom

put the A5 back in the JB
the JB is very sensitve to where it sits under the strings

about 1/8 inch (3mm) below the strings = sweet spot
hair metal for days

the ceramic is way too hot
that hump you hear will go away when you get it in the sweet spot
1/8 inch or 3 mm under the strings

you will know when you hear it
you can thank me later

I played with pickup heights a lot. I put the JB high enough so that the strings almost touched it when pulling back on the trem. That's where it sounded the best, but it still was not the sound I wanted.

 

[ToolmasterOfBrainerd]

The fact that you've the same feeling with 3 different (and well known) pickups suggests to me that the problem might be elsewhere...

What cable (brand and length) are you using between your guitar and its first host ?

And what is this "first host"? A wireless system? A pedal? The input of an amp? Do you know its input impedance? This 2d question is less important than the first one but might affect the tone as well.

I soldered the cable myself from Mogami cable and Switchcraft plugs. It's 12ft long and I've had no problems with it on any other guitar. The first pedal is a Drybell Unit67. I don't know the input impedance, but I know they advertise the pedal as having a very good buffer on the input.

 

[eclecticsynergy]

Does your 500K volume have a treble bleed on it? That's the solution to darkening when the volume's rolled back.
The Kinman-style bleed circuit preserves the highs without messing up the pot taper.
If you want it to get a little more sparkly as you dial it down, a plain 180pF cap seems to do that nicely.

As for further pickup options, I agree the Hybrid is almost always great in an HSS.
Demon is tighter and pretty bright, with output low enough to match your stacks.
Myself, I'd be leaning towards the Perpetual Burn; I think it sings much better than the Demon for lead work.

JB is great in most (not all) superStrats but it really does best with a 250K volume IMO. And that would darken your stacks.
Besides, the JB is quite hot: good if you want a volume jump at the bridge, not the best choice if you're looking for balanced output.

If you don't presently have a treble bleed and you decide to add one, I suggest trying the Custom 5 again once you do.
Or swap an A2 in and make it a CustomCustom. That's generally pretty fab in superStrats.

(EDIT) PS: The Unit 67 has excellent fidelity; its input is not picky and its buffer is high quality.
I don't think that's part of the problem.

 

[ToolmasterOfBrainerd]

Unconventional idea, but I might be tempted to put a resistor on the Custom to lower it's volume in line with the singles but keep it in the sweet spot of the strings.

Demon or 59/Custom, as-is, might be good solutions also.

IMO the mods you've been doing aren't the right ones to solve your problem. Custom 5 is scooped. I'm surprised you got any mid-build up with a C5. And tone on 3 isn't flat, so I'm having trouble understanding what your actual issue is, guitar, body, wiring, amp, etc. I agree with FreeFrog, your problem could be something else.

"Custom 5 is scooped" doesn't mean anything specific. There are a lot of midrange frequencies. It could easily have a big scoop around 1khz and have a peak at 3khz and we'd still call that scooped. If my guitar naturally emphasizes 3khz, then I could get a bad build up there despite the Custom 5 being scooped. I'm making up frequencies because my ears are not trained enough to tell, but I think you get my point. With the custom 5 I don't like the sound, and I think it's because it's too spiky and not balanced enough.

I could put a resistor on the custom, but I think that'll just make it darker.

Another vote for the 59/custom. I'll have to start looking into that one more. Thanks!

 

[ToolmasterOfBrainerd]

Does your 500K volume have a treble bleed on it? That's the solution to darkening when the volume's rolled back.
The Kinman-style bleed circuit preserves the highs without messing up the pot taper.
If you want it to get a little more sparkly as you dial it down, a plain 180pF cap seems to do that nicely.

As for further pickup options, I agree the Hybrid is almost always great in an HSS.
Demon is tighter and pretty bright, with output low enough to match your stacks.
Myself, I'd be leaning towards the Perpetual Burn; I think it sings much better than the Demon for lead work.

JB is great in most (not all) superStrats but it really does best with a 250K volume IMO. And that would darken your stacks.
Besides, the JB is quite hot: good if you want a volume jump at the bridge, not the best choice if you're looking for balanced output.

If you don't presently have a treble bleed and you decide to add one, I suggest trying the Custom 5 again once you do.
Or swap an A2 in and make it a CustomCustom. That's generally pretty fab in superStrats.

(EDIT) PS: The Unit 67 has excellent fidelity; its input is not picky and its buffer is high quality.
I don't think that's part of the problem.

I already have a treble bleed installed. I took the values from a previous similar guitar, but the values were optimized in that guitar. It sounds good in this guitar.

I think I can make lead work with most pickups. But whatever I put in has to be able to chug. Between the Hybrid, Demon, and Perpetual Burn, which would you say can chug the best?

I love the unit67. It really does make most things sound better.



EDIT: Thanks for the help so far everyone! I haven't had any luck finding a Screamin Demon or a Perpetual Burn used. However, there is a 59/Custom Hybrid trembucker in the trading post here that I might grab and try out. Wish me luck!

 

[Mincer]

Any of them can chug...so I would put it up to the EQ your guitar needs, and how much gain you use.

 

[freefrog]

I soldered the cable myself from Mogami cable and Switchcraft plugs. It's 12ft long and I've had no problems with it on any other guitar. The first pedal is a Drybell Unit67. I don't know the input impedance, but I know they advertise the pedal as having a very good buffer on the input.

[...]

If my guitar naturally emphasizes 3khz, then I could get a bad build up there despite the Custom 5 being scooped. I'm making up frequencies because my ears are not trained enough to tell, but I think you get my point. With the custom 5 I don't like the sound, and I think it's because it's too spiky and not balanced enough.

OK. Since you've previously described the sound as "low passed", I was wondering if the issue was a too high stray capacitance but with a relatively short Mogami cable + what Drybell said about the design of their input buffer, it shouldn't be the problem here, as a matter of fact - unless the pickups were affected by a very high parasitic capacitance due to the wiring of the guitar itself: it can happen, for the record... but I can't tell if it's a valid hypothesis here since I don't know what is the guitar involved.

Anyway, annoyingly prominent frequencies can be heard when the resonant peak of a passive pickup aligns itself with a frequency naturally promoted by the acoustic resonance of an instrument and/or by... the loudspeaker(s) / cab(s) used. Might be the case here, finally.

A 59/Custom Hybrid is approximatively 2H less inductive than a SH4 or Custom. So it might solve the issue thx to its higher pitched resonant peak "decoupling" possibly superposed peaks and giving a lesser "low pass" effect...

If ever it doesn't work, it might be interesting to try a buffer just at the output of the guitar: it would give the lowest possible parasitic capacitance with this instrument and therefore the most extended high range available with the onboard passive pickups. Then it would be doable to experiment with various added capacitive loads, in order to find the most desirable roll off frequency...

FWIW. Good luck in your quest.

 

[ToolmasterOfBrainerd]

OK. Since you've previously described the sound as "low passed", I was wondering if the issue was a too high stray capacitance but with a relatively short Mogami cable + what Drybell said about the design of their input buffer, it shouldn't be the problem here, as a matter of fact - unless the pickups were affected by a very high parasitic capacitance due to the wiring of the guitar itself: it can happen, for the record... but I can't tell if it's a valid hypothesis here since I don't know what is the guitar involved.

Anyway, annoyingly prominent frequencies can be heard when the resonant peak of a passive pickup aligns itself with a frequency naturally promoted by the acoustic resonance of an instrument and/or by... the loudspeaker(s) / cab(s) used. Might be the case here, finally.

A 59/Custom Hybrid is approximatively 2H less inductive than a SH4 or Custom. So it might solve the issue thx to its higher pitched resonant peak "decoupling" possibly superposed peaks and giving a lesser "low pass" effect...

If ever it doesn't work, it might be interesting to try a buffer just at the output of the guitar: it would give the lowest possible parasitic capacitance with this instrument and therefore the most extended high range available with the onboard passive pickups. Then it would be doable to experiment with various added capacitive loads, in order to find the most desirable roll off frequency...

FWIW. Good luck in your quest.

Now THIS is the kind of info I needed. Thanks!

The guitar is one I built myself and the wiring is a mess. It has graphtech ghost piezo installed and I included an active/passive switch (mostly to turn off the battery if I'm not using the piezo). Graphtech uses 2mm pin spacing on its board and it was very hard to find 2mm connectors. I found some pre-made cables on amazon, but they are junk, and they are currently in the guitar. I have some much better connectors from Mouser, but I haven't replaced the old ones yet.

I prefer the sound and feel of passive over active, but the difference is very subtle. Oh, and I'm pretty sure I have a bad ground joint somewhere. This guitar is pretty noisy right now.

Despite all of that, the neck and middle single coils sound fine. Actually, they sound fantastic. I don't think the problem is parasitic capacitance, but I can't rule it out. Unless I could test for it with a multimeter?

The 59/custom hybrid that was in the trading post had already sold. I'll have to keep searching to find one.

 

[freefrog]

I don't think the problem is parasitic capacitance, but I can't rule it out. Unless I could test for it with a multimeter?

Yes, relatively advanced DMM's allow to measure capacitance. I do that all the time. But the wiring has to be disconnected from the pickups: most multimeter's become mad when they are asked to measure the capacitance of coils...

Regarding stray capacitance... it's one of the most overlooked factors in guitar electronics because it's terribly difficult to predict and to measure. But it can creep everywhere for unexpected reasons - like the moisture of drying wood contaminating the cloth insulation of some cable in a guitar (!).

And some cables/wires are surely much more capacitive than others.

Also and as you evoke piezo saddles: a piezo can behave like a capacitor if it's wired in parallel with a passive pickup...

Anyway: IME, the low pass filtering that you mentioned is typical of high inductance pickups coupled with high capacitance. Diminishing one of these two factors should extend the high range : a SH1 is brighter than a SH4 or Custom mostly because it has a twice lower inductance, for example... but a SH4 or Custom played through 30pF of cable is also brighter than itself through a cable or wiring of 1000pF... unless the low pass filtering of a guitar loudspeaker hides this change, of course.

Single coils are less sensitive to parasitic capacitance and can even find a benefit in it, because they are inherently way brighter than humbuckers (a Strat single coil is 4 times less inductive than a SH4 or Custom; a stack is most probably close to such a value if it's convincingly "single coilish").

it's not the only possible explanation of what you did experiment, obviously. But it's something that I'd consider if I had the same issue. YMMV.

Good luck again!

 

[eclecticsynergy]

I already have a treble bleed installed. I took the values from a previous similar guitar, but the values were optimized in that guitar. It sounds good in this guitar.

I think I can make lead work with most pickups. But whatever I put in has to be able to chug. Between the Hybrid, Demon, and Perpetual Burn, which would you say can chug the best?

I love the unit67. It really does make most things sound better.



EDIT: Thanks for the help so far everyone! I haven't had any luck finding a Screamin Demon or a Perpetual Burn used. However, there is a 59/Custom Hybrid trembucker in the trading post here that I might grab and try out. Wish me luck!

I'm not really a chug kind of player, so I can't really recommend the best in terms of that.
That said, ceramic is often well regarded by metal players because of its big firm lows and overall tightness.
You might consider the Duncan Distortion neck model. It was originally designed as a bright/tight bridge pickup.
Its output isn't as over-the-top hot as the Distortion bridge model.

BTW, do you turn off the Unit67 for chugging?

 

[jeremy]

thats a good suggestion actually, i bet a sh6n in the bridge would suit the need well

 

[ToolmasterOfBrainerd]

I'm not really a chug kind of player, so I can't really recommend the best in terms of that.
That said, ceramic is often well regarded by metal players because of its big firm lows and overall tightness.
You might consider the Duncan Distortion neck model. It was originally designed as a bright/tight bridge pickup.
Its output isn't as over-the-top hot as the Distortion bridge model.

BTW, do you turn off the Unit67 for chugging?

Interesting, I never would have thought of that, but that's a great idea to keep in mind. I like the feel of Alnico 5 more than ceramic, but I LOVE the low end shape and the percussiveness of the Custom with its ceramic magnet. I don't have much experience with ceramic magnets.

I keep the unit67 on. I keep the compression pretty low, so the noise floor isn't too bad. I usually play with my fingers with a light touch, so the extra compression is welcome. Yes, I palm mute and chug with fingers. Sometimes I use a pick, but only when I have to. I love what the EQ in the unit67 does to a high gain sound. Pushing up the range control seems to add a really pleasant marshall-like fizz. It's subtle, but addictive.

I've noticed the Duncan custom ceramic sounds way better when played really hard with a pick. I love the sound I get doing that, but it's not a great pairing for me if I prefer a light touch with fingers. I'm wondering if other ceramic pickups will have that same problem.

 

[Coryd]

I vote for the 59/custom also. I have one in my John 5 Tele and it is my fav SD pickup next to the JB. It is medium output but to me is very good all around pickup. Kind of a do it all pickup for me at least.

 

[ToolmasterOfBrainerd]

Update: I bought a 59/custom hybrid. So far, I like it. I need to play with it more to see how it holds up. It's still a bit hot compared to the single coils, depending on the pickup height of course. My problem is that I like neck and middle pickups really low and bridge pickups really high. I think I need to raise the neck and middle single coils if I want the outputs to match, and that's my best hope for a balanced setup. Fortunately, I was able to back off the height of the 59/custom hybrid a little and it still sounds good.

I also bought a magnet collection from addiction fx. I think I'll run the racks with those and see what happens. If the Alnico V is the best I get, I'm okay with that, because I like this pickup right now. But I'm very curious to see how some other magnets sound.

Thanks for the recommendations everyone!