Chickenwings
Alnico 6/8
http://soundcloud.com/ava-torch/veronique
hope you enjoy.....feedback appreciated!
hope you enjoy.....feedback appreciated!
new song . first draft. rock project!
- Thread starter Chickenwings
- Start date
crusty philtrum
Vintageologist
Re: new song . first draft. rock project!
First, i have two questions ... is that the same singer who featured on another clip you posted recently where you were talking about getting back into using a Strat ? And is the guitar on this track a Strat ? (if i had to make an educated guess, I would guess 'yes' to both questions).
I liked the song and the guitar arrangement, but something came to me from the previous clip with this singer, and was reinforced here. Because of the nature of her voice, I don't think the Strat is the right guitar, it seems to kinda occupy the same sonic space as her voice somehow. To my ear, a Gibson-type sound would be better, occupying and filling a slightly lower area, leaving her voice more open space in her register. Maybe the 335 would be a candidate ?
Having said that, i can hear the she has one of those voices that can be tricky to work around ... it it hard and bright on the higher notes and more rounded and a little less powerful on the lower notes ... which of course are typical of vocals, and female vocals in particular. It occurs to me that possibly some experiments with different vocal mics for her might make some difference.
I'm listening here on very good gear (my studio monitors, which i use to listen to almost everything) so i know i'm not being decieved, although this is all about my personal perception .... the next person may hear it and percieve it completely differently to me.
I hope i'm not coming across as a d*ck here, i'm not meaning to be. My first impression when i hit 'play' was 'ah, okay, right, i get the groove and what's happening' (because i had no idea what style to expect, whether there would be vocals, etc.). My second impression was that it was the same singer i heard on the other clip and that she and the guitar were clashing somehow in the sonic spectrum.
I like the song, her voice has certain characteristics that make me think of cabaret/showgirl kinda style, brassy maybe, and with the almost sludgy guitar riff, it's an interesting juxtaposition ... it works, but i just think it would work better if the guitar and voice were separated sonically somehow. More low mids from the guitar was my immediate thought.
but this is just how i heard it, and i am only one individual.
First, i have two questions ... is that the same singer who featured on another clip you posted recently where you were talking about getting back into using a Strat ? And is the guitar on this track a Strat ? (if i had to make an educated guess, I would guess 'yes' to both questions).
I liked the song and the guitar arrangement, but something came to me from the previous clip with this singer, and was reinforced here. Because of the nature of her voice, I don't think the Strat is the right guitar, it seems to kinda occupy the same sonic space as her voice somehow. To my ear, a Gibson-type sound would be better, occupying and filling a slightly lower area, leaving her voice more open space in her register. Maybe the 335 would be a candidate ?
Having said that, i can hear the she has one of those voices that can be tricky to work around ... it it hard and bright on the higher notes and more rounded and a little less powerful on the lower notes ... which of course are typical of vocals, and female vocals in particular. It occurs to me that possibly some experiments with different vocal mics for her might make some difference.
I'm listening here on very good gear (my studio monitors, which i use to listen to almost everything) so i know i'm not being decieved, although this is all about my personal perception .... the next person may hear it and percieve it completely differently to me.
I hope i'm not coming across as a d*ck here, i'm not meaning to be. My first impression when i hit 'play' was 'ah, okay, right, i get the groove and what's happening' (because i had no idea what style to expect, whether there would be vocals, etc.). My second impression was that it was the same singer i heard on the other clip and that she and the guitar were clashing somehow in the sonic spectrum.
I like the song, her voice has certain characteristics that make me think of cabaret/showgirl kinda style, brassy maybe, and with the almost sludgy guitar riff, it's an interesting juxtaposition ... it works, but i just think it would work better if the guitar and voice were separated sonically somehow. More low mids from the guitar was my immediate thought.
but this is just how i heard it, and i am only one individual.
Kam
Shaftologist
Re: new song . first draft. rock project!
I really, really liked this man. I love the suopy guitar playing. Really atmospheric. It kinda reminded me of some old Queen Adreena tracks, though less industrial and abrasive, obviously. I can't wait to hear more of this.
And yeah, I'd also be interested in knowing what gear you used. Sounds like a Strat to me, but that rhythm tone's glorious.
I really, really liked this man. I love the suopy guitar playing. Really atmospheric. It kinda reminded me of some old Queen Adreena tracks, though less industrial and abrasive, obviously. I can't wait to hear more of this.
And yeah, I'd also be interested in knowing what gear you used. Sounds like a Strat to me, but that rhythm tone's glorious.
Chickenwings
Alnico 6/8
Re: new song . first draft. rock project!
thats all great suff crusty....thanks for taking the time to listen.
1. yes same singer.
2. yes its the strat.
Re; the mix....this was just done on my computer....we are getting a pro to mix it shortly.
However ....i did try the guitar track with a marshall and that was just too much in teh vocal range....so this is thru the twin...which seemed to "duck" her vocal frequencies a bit better. In the studio yesterday we used a princeton, but it as not loud enough to get the feedback.....
I might give the 335 another go....but we have previously done demos of these songs and its not quite articulate enough for the big grungy chords...plus no trem....
She kinda likes the strat tone.....so mebbe it still needs some fine tuning on the eq shelving. I might re-do a few gtr parts (maybe just change the eq on the dirt pedal) and see what happens, then see what the pro studio guy will do also.
The bass has gut strings, so that was kinda difficult to fatten it up too.
Yes definitely cabaret.....Thats her thing - shes a NIDA graduate blah blah- its the Ava Torch show. There will be a few songs coming up. All of them are totally different. She dont want the audience getting bored!
Kam...the gtr track is strat, fulltone GT500, deja vu, old twin reverb on 3 1/2
thats all great suff crusty....thanks for taking the time to listen.
1. yes same singer.
2. yes its the strat.
Re; the mix....this was just done on my computer....we are getting a pro to mix it shortly.
However ....i did try the guitar track with a marshall and that was just too much in teh vocal range....so this is thru the twin...which seemed to "duck" her vocal frequencies a bit better. In the studio yesterday we used a princeton, but it as not loud enough to get the feedback.....
I might give the 335 another go....but we have previously done demos of these songs and its not quite articulate enough for the big grungy chords...plus no trem....
She kinda likes the strat tone.....so mebbe it still needs some fine tuning on the eq shelving. I might re-do a few gtr parts (maybe just change the eq on the dirt pedal) and see what happens, then see what the pro studio guy will do also.
The bass has gut strings, so that was kinda difficult to fatten it up too.
Yes definitely cabaret.....Thats her thing - shes a NIDA graduate blah blah- its the Ava Torch show. There will be a few songs coming up. All of them are totally different. She dont want the audience getting bored!
Kam...the gtr track is strat, fulltone GT500, deja vu, old twin reverb on 3 1/2
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crusty philtrum
Vintageologist
Re: new song . first draft. rock project!
It did occur to me that the low riff might get too murky with a Gibson. It's a difficult one, sonically.
If you were working with unlimited equipment, i think my thoughts would be to try a bunch of different vocal mics, and use a vintage-style valve preamp for the mic.(or a software valve preamp?)
For the guitar, if you are going to use the Strat, is it possible to run the Twin into a quad box (4 x 12 cab) ? That might keep the edge but fatten up the body of the sound maybe.
Yeah, my comments all pertain to the sonic qualities, I do like the song. But my feelings are that for the unusual juxtaposition of styles between the guitar and voice, this might be one time when getting the sonic balance just right could really make a big difference to how the song goes over with the listener.
Normally i listen through the sound to hear what is happening musically, and i did with this too, but like i said, i think this one really needs to get that sonic balance just right to be absolutely killer.
It did occur to me that the low riff might get too murky with a Gibson. It's a difficult one, sonically.
If you were working with unlimited equipment, i think my thoughts would be to try a bunch of different vocal mics, and use a vintage-style valve preamp for the mic.(or a software valve preamp?)
For the guitar, if you are going to use the Strat, is it possible to run the Twin into a quad box (4 x 12 cab) ? That might keep the edge but fatten up the body of the sound maybe.
Yeah, my comments all pertain to the sonic qualities, I do like the song. But my feelings are that for the unusual juxtaposition of styles between the guitar and voice, this might be one time when getting the sonic balance just right could really make a big difference to how the song goes over with the listener.
Normally i listen through the sound to hear what is happening musically, and i did with this too, but like i said, i think this one really needs to get that sonic balance just right to be absolutely killer.
Chickenwings
Alnico 6/8
Re: new song . first draft. rock project!
yeh i getcha crusty......leave it with me....this is a frist draft...youll get to hear a few more if you are keen. I appreciate the extra ears. We are keeping the drums and bass.....the rest is all the really slow and time consuming stuff of re-recording the gtrs etc and mixing (and mixing again and again) till it all locks into place.
yeh i getcha crusty......leave it with me....this is a frist draft...youll get to hear a few more if you are keen. I appreciate the extra ears. We are keeping the drums and bass.....the rest is all the really slow and time consuming stuff of re-recording the gtrs etc and mixing (and mixing again and again) till it all locks into place.
crusty philtrum
Vintageologist
Re: new song . first draft. rock project!
I hope a couple of the studio guys here chime in on this one for you.
Listening to it again, without a guitar at hand ... seems like whenever the song moves up to the IV chord and she sings higher is when it gets harsh. I really dig the bass sound, it's great: guitar sound is, too. It sure is an interesting combination of sounds and styles, really unique. Kinda heavy swing cabaret or something, hehe. I'm looking forward to hearing some of the other material too, there's certainly a lot of scope for some really interesting material by the sounds of it.
I'll shut up now and just listen, hehe.
I hope a couple of the studio guys here chime in on this one for you.
Listening to it again, without a guitar at hand ... seems like whenever the song moves up to the IV chord and she sings higher is when it gets harsh. I really dig the bass sound, it's great: guitar sound is, too. It sure is an interesting combination of sounds and styles, really unique. Kinda heavy swing cabaret or something, hehe. I'm looking forward to hearing some of the other material too, there's certainly a lot of scope for some really interesting material by the sounds of it.
I'll shut up now and just listen, hehe.
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CTN
The Drama Dude
Re: new song . first draft. rock project!
You need a lot more lows and low mids in that mix.
The upright bass is doing absolutely no favours to the strat's tone...With an electric bass it'd sound a lot fuller and thumpy. I get the kinda vibe you're going for with the songwriting, the playing and the instrumentation, but I really think this needs an electric bass.
or you could go the other way around, keep the upright bass, and use something like a hollowbody for the guitar tracks. Also, IMO, a touch less gain on the guitar could also help.
Other than that, the song is pretty damn cool, and the performances were top notch. lotsa soul and vibe!
You need a lot more lows and low mids in that mix.
The upright bass is doing absolutely no favours to the strat's tone...With an electric bass it'd sound a lot fuller and thumpy. I get the kinda vibe you're going for with the songwriting, the playing and the instrumentation, but I really think this needs an electric bass.
or you could go the other way around, keep the upright bass, and use something like a hollowbody for the guitar tracks. Also, IMO, a touch less gain on the guitar could also help.
Other than that, the song is pretty damn cool, and the performances were top notch. lotsa soul and vibe!
TwilightOdyssey
Darkness on the edge of Tone
Re: new song . first draft. rock project!
Not what I expected to hear at all! Very nice!
Not what I expected to hear at all! Very nice!
Chickenwings
Alnico 6/8
Re: new song . first draft. rock project!
Convoys...yeh. I have the option of getting the session guy back to do electric bass. He used gut strings on his double bass, which to me dont sound and good as steelwound flats. The rockabilly guys like them for that percussive style, but i woukd have definitely preferred metal strings on a double bass in a perfect world. The double bass sound is an important part of what we are going for....id juts like it "bigger" than the gut strings can give. I dont know if we can get him back (hes a sesson player) on a steel stringed double bass.
And yeh i can and probably will re-record the guitar a few times. The gain on the pedal is only at 10 o clock and im using low output pickups and a clean amp. I might try it with the 335 and see if it sounds better in the mix.
After that ill pas it back to the studio engineer to do some mixing with better ears than mine and waaaaay better gear. This was just mixed on my laptop with the plugins from cubase.
Convoys...yeh. I have the option of getting the session guy back to do electric bass. He used gut strings on his double bass, which to me dont sound and good as steelwound flats. The rockabilly guys like them for that percussive style, but i woukd have definitely preferred metal strings on a double bass in a perfect world. The double bass sound is an important part of what we are going for....id juts like it "bigger" than the gut strings can give. I dont know if we can get him back (hes a sesson player) on a steel stringed double bass.
And yeh i can and probably will re-record the guitar a few times. The gain on the pedal is only at 10 o clock and im using low output pickups and a clean amp. I might try it with the 335 and see if it sounds better in the mix.
After that ill pas it back to the studio engineer to do some mixing with better ears than mine and waaaaay better gear. This was just mixed on my laptop with the plugins from cubase.
ItsaBass
New member
Re: new song . first draft. rock project!
The uprite sounds fine to me. This is a rough draft. It just needs to be mixed better to bring it way up in volume. What I find most unlikable is that drone in the background. Well, the problem with it is that it actually isn't in the background at all. It smears over everything else. But again, that is a mixing issue.
The uprite sounds fine to me. This is a rough draft. It just needs to be mixed better to bring it way up in volume. What I find most unlikable is that drone in the background. Well, the problem with it is that it actually isn't in the background at all. It smears over everything else. But again, that is a mixing issue.
innerdreamrecords.co
TrippyVinylologist
Re: new song . first draft. rock project!
Cool song! Yeah, the mix could go a few different ways, this isn't one of them. Hahaha In all seriousness I don't know the vibe you're going for but the guitar is stepping on her vocals. You can pull the guitar back in the mix and compress her vocals a lot harder. I think I would use less reverb too on her unless you're trying for a soupy sounding mix. Carve a hole in the center for her vocals to sit in with eq and panning.
Sorry if you didn't want feedback, I can't help myself.
Cool song! Yeah, the mix could go a few different ways, this isn't one of them. Hahaha In all seriousness I don't know the vibe you're going for but the guitar is stepping on her vocals. You can pull the guitar back in the mix and compress her vocals a lot harder. I think I would use less reverb too on her unless you're trying for a soupy sounding mix. Carve a hole in the center for her vocals to sit in with eq and panning.
Sorry if you didn't want feedback, I can't help myself.
Chickenwings
Alnico 6/8
Re: new song . first draft. rock project!
innerdream:
heh....nah i was looking for feedback like that...thanks!....its probably pretty obvious im no mixing guru....it will go into the hands of a proper engineer when we are happy with the parts.
Yeh i kinda put aux reverb on everything....maybe thats cluttering things up if vocals and bass and drums etc are all running thru it?
Itsabass: what drone exactly do you mean? is it in the high end or low down?....ive been listening to this song for 24 hours and maybe ive grown de-sensetized to it. Ill track it down if you can give me some more details of what you are hearing...
innerdream:
heh....nah i was looking for feedback like that...thanks!....its probably pretty obvious im no mixing guru....it will go into the hands of a proper engineer when we are happy with the parts.
Yeh i kinda put aux reverb on everything....maybe thats cluttering things up if vocals and bass and drums etc are all running thru it?
Itsabass: what drone exactly do you mean? is it in the high end or low down?....ive been listening to this song for 24 hours and maybe ive grown de-sensetized to it. Ill track it down if you can give me some more details of what you are hearing...
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innerdreamrecords.co
TrippyVinylologist
Re: new song . first draft. rock project!
Again it kind of depends on what you're after in the vibe. Like a smokey club sound or something else. I think it's really good to turn off all the reverb get the levels happening and the panning then pick your spots to add reverb to put things in a space. You would be surprised at how just a few elements with reverb can make the whole thing pop.
Again it kind of depends on what you're after in the vibe. Like a smokey club sound or something else. I think it's really good to turn off all the reverb get the levels happening and the panning then pick your spots to add reverb to put things in a space. You would be surprised at how just a few elements with reverb can make the whole thing pop.
Chickenwings
Alnico 6/8
Re: new song . first draft. rock project!
yeh ok ill try that. cheers!
yeh ok ill try that. cheers!
ItsaBass
New member
Re: new song . first draft. rock project!
I'm thinking it must be a keyboard. Sounds like a synthesized bagpipe, in the beginning.
Listening again, I think the bass and drums are waaaay buried by the guitar. Drums and bass up front and guitar a bit more buried would suit the song well IMO.
It is cool; it just has a muddy mix at this point.
I'm thinking it must be a keyboard. Sounds like a synthesized bagpipe, in the beginning.
Listening again, I think the bass and drums are waaaay buried by the guitar. Drums and bass up front and guitar a bit more buried would suit the song well IMO.
It is cool; it just has a muddy mix at this point.
Chickenwings
Alnico 6/8
Re: new song . first draft. rock project!
synthesized bagpipe! lol....its guitar!....but at least i know what you mean now - ill look at that part again....its played with an ebow, but only is in a couple of parts of the tune.
When i get back from Melbourne ill re mix from the ground up with no reverbs, then add just a touch here and there as innerdream suggested and see how it goes. Might even re-do all the guitar parts a few times with different settings and axes and see how they sit.
Thanks everyone for all your input. It definitely helps - and i appreciate everyone saying exactly what they think cos that kind of advice is really useful in making it sound better. Mebbe when the album comes out i can add the SDUGF in the list of credits!
synthesized bagpipe! lol....its guitar!....but at least i know what you mean now - ill look at that part again....its played with an ebow, but only is in a couple of parts of the tune.
When i get back from Melbourne ill re mix from the ground up with no reverbs, then add just a touch here and there as innerdream suggested and see how it goes. Might even re-do all the guitar parts a few times with different settings and axes and see how they sit.
Thanks everyone for all your input. It definitely helps - and i appreciate everyone saying exactly what they think cos that kind of advice is really useful in making it sound better. Mebbe when the album comes out i can add the SDUGF in the list of credits!
SamusChief
New member
Re: new song . first draft. rock project!
This is really cool! I needed something fresh to listen to! Thanks for this.
I knew something good would come out of clicking the clips section today!
This is really cool! I needed something fresh to listen to! Thanks for this.
I knew something good would come out of clicking the clips section today!
wahwah
GumbyLoveologist
Re: new song . first draft. rock project!
I think the basic mismatch that is happening is because the vocalist's sound is too clean and thin to compete with a heavy guitar track. It's like what you would get if you were to put a cabaret jazz singer in front of a rock band. She doesn't have the authority in her tone to stand in front of the track. Adding reverb to her vocal only weakens it in that context. The only chance she will have is to move everything out of her way in the stereo field and have her dry in the middle. This is one case where using a cheap dynamic on the main vocal may be better than a condenser.
This will take some work in mixdown because the mismatch is at a fundamental level. Maybe by moving the guitar track out of the centre and possibly pushing it back with pre-delay on the reverb you can get it to seem like she has the power to dominate the band. In this mix the guitar is eating her alive.
Keep us posted!
Cheers...................................... wahwah
I think the basic mismatch that is happening is because the vocalist's sound is too clean and thin to compete with a heavy guitar track. It's like what you would get if you were to put a cabaret jazz singer in front of a rock band. She doesn't have the authority in her tone to stand in front of the track. Adding reverb to her vocal only weakens it in that context. The only chance she will have is to move everything out of her way in the stereo field and have her dry in the middle. This is one case where using a cheap dynamic on the main vocal may be better than a condenser.
This will take some work in mixdown because the mismatch is at a fundamental level. Maybe by moving the guitar track out of the centre and possibly pushing it back with pre-delay on the reverb you can get it to seem like she has the power to dominate the band. In this mix the guitar is eating her alive.
Keep us posted!
Cheers...................................... wahwah
Chickenwings
Alnico 6/8
Re: new song . first draft. rock project!
wah - you are right on....she IS a cabaret singer! lol
its odd tho cos she is loud as hell.
thanks for the ideas....ill get back to working on parts and mixing on the 29th when i get back from Melbourne. If i can make it work okay at home using my laptop, then hopefully when it gets remixed by the pro engineer it will sound better still. Ill keep you posted...and its be great to hear what you guys think about subsequent mixing attempts.
Merry Christmas all!
wah - you are right on....she IS a cabaret singer! lol
its odd tho cos she is loud as hell.
thanks for the ideas....ill get back to working on parts and mixing on the 29th when i get back from Melbourne. If i can make it work okay at home using my laptop, then hopefully when it gets remixed by the pro engineer it will sound better still. Ill keep you posted...and its be great to hear what you guys think about subsequent mixing attempts.
Merry Christmas all!
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