"New" stuff that I've learned about vintage paf humbuckers

[Lewguitar]

Since getting back into humbuckers via my recently acquired 2000 ES-335 I've been re-educating myself about vintage pafs and why they sound so good!

Here's a few tidbits according to ToneQuest, Lindy Fralin and especially Tom Holmes:

1. The covers on vintage 50's Gibson pafs are made from Nickel/Silver. In the 60's and 70's Gibson switched to brass covers with thick chrome plating. Those
dampen the highs more than the covers Gibson used in the 50's.

2. The thickness of the plating on the cover also affects the tone of the humbucker. The thinner the plating the better.

3. Gold plating affects the tone adversely as well. Nickel/Silver gives a better tone than gold plating.

4. Gold plated fillister pole piece screws affect the tone adversely too.

5. All plain enamel 42 ga. wire used in the 50's contained lead in the enamel coating as well as certain other chemicals now banned by the EPA. There is no lead in any of the enamel coating used these days. That would have a slight impact on the tone.

6. Tom uses fully charged alnico 2 mangnets in his humbuckers. They are not aged or de-magnetized.

7. Seth Lover specified a Nickel/Silver cover and alnico 2 magnets. From '57 - '60 Gibson used primarily alnico 2, alnico 4 and alnico 5.

8. Most pafs from 1959 are double cream.

9. Eric Clapton's '60 Les Paul that he used with the Bluesbreakers probably had either alnico 4 or alnico 5 magnets in the pafs. The tone on that album is brighter and more aggressive - although the amp is probably a 2 x 12 50 watt Marshall cranked all the way up through Celestion alnico magnet speakers.

10. Eric Clapton's '58 Les Paul that he used for Fresh Cream probably had alnico 2 magnets and I can hear a difference in his tone - although by then he was also using 100 watt Marshalls with ceramic magnet Celestions. Regardless, the tone on that album sound slike alnico 2 pafs to me. Smoother, less bite to the treble and more mids.

11. Tom dsigned the Gibson '57 Classic humbucker.

12. Tom hand winds all of his pickups and scatter winds them all - even though 50's paf's were wound on the same Leesona pickup winder Seymour now owns and the wire was not guided by hand in the 50's. But Tom and Tom's customers prefer scatterwinding and feel the tone is better scatter wound.

13. Tom feels he can control the tension of the wind better by guiding the wire by hand and that controlling the tension is another important factor in getting the tone he and his customers are looking for.

14. After about 1960, Gibson redesigned the paf humbucker. They switched to using alnico 5 and shortened the length of the magnet by 1/8".
They also switched to brass chrome plated covers and used a thicker plating because it hid flaws in the cover better. The covers got thicker and rounder looking and the the tone got honkier.

15. The pickups in Larry Carlton's mid 60's ES-335 sound fabulous - even though they are not paf style and use the shorter alnico 5 magnet and the thick cover.

16. The pickups in Eric Clapton's SG that he used on Disraeli Gears are also probably the shorter magnet and thicker cover type. They sound great too!

17. Just for giggles, I thought I'd mention the tones I think of as being the ultimate in vintage humbucker tone:

Duane Allman on Allman Brothers Live At the Fillmore East. Engineer/Producer Tom Dowd had a lot to do with capturing the beautiful tones on that album.

Eric Clapton on Bluesbreakers, Fresh Cream, Disraeli Gears and Wheels of Fire.

Mike Bloomfield - especially on Super Session.

Peter Green - especially Supernatural on the John Mayall Hard Road album.

Paul Kosoff with Free.

That's all I can think of for now.

But I am curious about two things:

1. The color of the enamel coating on the 42 ga. wire wound on Duncan Antiquitys is different from the color of the enamel coating on the 42 ga. wire used on Duncan production pickups. Is it a thinner coating? How does it differ from the wire used on pickups not made in the Duncan Custom Shop?

2. What is the cover that Duncan uses made of? Is it always nickel/silver as specified by Seth Lover? Or is it nickel or chrome plated brass?

 

[Curly]

Re: "New" stuff that I've learned about vintage paf humbuckers

Lew,

I thought that article also suggested Tom used A4. Actually, he says he ordered A4, but the analysis came back as a "hybrid" - that is, the break down didn't match specs for A4.
However, I thought it was just a little vague - does he always use A4, or just for certain pickups?

BTW, I think he also orders his own wire to spec.

one thing you get from reading that though: "... it's the little things."

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: "New" stuff that I've learned about vintage paf humbuckers

Lew,

I thought that article also suggested Tom used A4. Actually, he says he ordered A4, but the analysis came back as a "hybrid" - that is, the break down didn't match specs for A4.
However, I thought it was just a little vague - does he always use A4, or just for certain pickups?

BTW, I think he also orders his own wire to spec.

one thing you get from reading that though: "... it's the little things."

The impression I got from re-reading that article was that Tom used alnico 4 in the 70's when he first started winding his own pickups. He purchased the alnico 4 from Thomas & Skinner. He since switched to full strength alnico 2 which he buys from Arnold Engineering and which he magnetizes to full strength himself. (Same place Lindy Fralin buys his magnets.) Tom still offers his pickups in alnico 4 and Lindy uses alnico 4 in his humbuckers. But Tom's most requested humbuckers use alnico 2. Mine are definitely alnico 2 because I ordered them directly from Tom himself and we spoke about it.

 

[jeremy]

Re: "New" stuff that I've learned about vintage paf humbuckers

the antiquity wire is a little darker purple almost brown looking? probably just slightly thicker insulation. i have two types of 42 pe wire (from the same company) one has slightly thicker insulation and is darker looking

 

[Zhangliqun]

Re: "New" stuff that I've learned about vintage paf humbuckers

You can get thicker insulation of all types, typically referred to as "double-build", e.g., two coats, as opposed to (in the case of PE) the most frequently used single-build. As with anything in life, this single build from this manufacturer may be a slightly thicker or thinner than from another, or for that matter, there's bound to be some even slighter variation on the same spool (not to mention the actual diameter of the copper wire itself).

However, I had not heard that there were intentional hybrids between single and double build available. Doesn't mean there aren't any and I'm hardly an expert on the manufacture of such wire, I just hadn't heard of this.

 

[Zhangliqun]

Re: "New" stuff that I've learned about vintage paf humbuckers

Also, the stuff about the covers in the original post is exactly right in my experience.

 

[ganzosrevenge]

Re: "New" stuff that I've learned about vintage paf humbuckers

I wonder something.

Why doesn't Tom show his work on his website, and what models are available? I'd love to see his work and be able to know the prices from the source itself.

Jason

 

[the guy who invented fire]

Re: "New" stuff that I've learned about vintage paf humbuckers

I'll get in on this...I love me some good PAF style buckers!

Claptons tone is still a bit of a curious deal for me...

Beano was likely a 6+0 LP and as you said likely had the Alnico 4 or 5 pickups...the amp however might have very well had ceramic 20 watt Greenbacks on top of that there is the on going debate about if Eric used a Rangemaster or not...either way, the tone on Beano is punchy and snarling at times and has a nice top end cut that Eric didn't ever really have again.

In Cream early on (Fresh Cream) he used various borrowed LP's ranging from several Bursts (one with a Bigsby) a 60 Double Cut specoal wiht 2 p-90's and a Bigsby and even a 1957 3 pickup Custom add that wit the switch to JTM-45/100 amps and sealed back 4x12 cabs and you have the tonal shift.

As fas as Tom designing the Classic 57, that actually worries me...I never liked the Classic 57's much at all however a buddy of mine uses one in the bridge position of a Strat and really likes it!

Interesing that the changes in Gibson buckers happened so early becasue there are lots of killer Bucker tones form the 60's that would have short A5 magnets and chome covers...Nice list of ideal tones BTW! However, I heard that East-West was the 54 Gold top and that Mike's 59 BUrst was bought just before the tour started....do you know for sure??

 

[the guy who invented fire]

Re: "New" stuff that I've learned about vintage paf humbuckers

But I am curious about two things:

1. The color of the enamel coating on the 42 ga. wire wound on Duncan Antiquitys is different from the color of the enamel coating on the 42 ga. wire used on Duncan production pickups. Is it a thinner coating? How does it differ from the wire used on pickups not made in the Duncan Custom Shop?

2. What is the cover that Duncan uses made of? Is it always nickel/silver as specified by Seth Lover? Or is it nickel or chrome plated brass?

Im not sure about the coating of the wire on Antiquities but I can tell you that even though, for example a Seth Lover and an Antiquity both use 42 ga wire they are 2 different types of wire...

All the Duncans wiht covers I've ever used were old spec nickel/silver, not brass.

Interesting side note...50's Broadcasters, Nocasters and Telecasters used brass covers on their neck pickups and despite being a biy muffled and dull at times I think there is some magic in them if done properly, however on my buckers give me nickel/silver!

 

[Zhangliqun]

Re: "New" stuff that I've learned about vintage paf humbuckers

Duncan covers do tend to be more transparent.

 

[Boogie Bill]

Re: "New" stuff that I've learned about vintage paf humbuckers

Let me add one more name to the great LP humbucker tone list: Charlie Daniels Band. Doesn't get a lot of recognition these days, but he and his other guitarist both used vintage LPs.

The thing I like about the vintage style PAFs is that they are so versatile and appropriate for any kind of music.

Great post, Lew!

Bill

 

[the guy who invented fire]

Re: "New" stuff that I've learned about vintage paf humbuckers

If we want to include great vintage PAF tones in this thread check out Greg Martins work on the new album from his new band Rufus Huff...simply amazing! Greg plays his 50's burst through a pair of vinateg Plexi Marshalls and almost no effects on the album...greaet tone for sure!

 

[gOgIver]

Re: "New" stuff that I've learned about vintage paf humbuckers

5. All plain enamel 42 ga. wire used in the 50's contained lead in the enamel coating as well as certain other chemicals now banned by the EPA. There is no lead in any of the enamel coating used these days. That would have a slight impact on the tone.



11. Tom dsigned the Gibson '57 Classic humbucker.

Interesting, thanks!

 

[jeremy]

Re: "New" stuff that I've learned about vintage paf humbuckers

You can get thicker insulation of all types, typically referred to as "double-build", e.g., two coats, as opposed to (in the case of PE) the most frequently used single-build. As with anything in life, this single build from this manufacturer may be a slightly thicker or thinner than from another, or for that matter, there's bound to be some even slighter variation on the same spool (not to mention the actual diameter of the copper wire itself).

However, I had not heard that there were intentional hybrids between single and double build available. Doesn't mean there aren't any and I'm hardly an expert on the manufacture of such wire, I just hadn't heard of this.

with formvar for example i have a spool of 42 single formvar (know where to get more? mws doesnt carry it anymore) and a spool of heavy formvar. for 42 pe i have two types of single build, one with a thinner coating and one with a thicker. i cant recall what they are called at the moment but they are noticably different

If we want to include great vintage PAF tones in this thread check out Greg Martins work on the new album from his new band Rufus Huff...simply amazing! Greg plays his 50's burst through a pair of vinateg Plexi Marshalls and almost no effects on the album...greaet tone for sure!

i havent heard that but greg has had great tone as long as ive known of him. killer slide player too!

 

[Zhangliqun]

Re: "New" stuff that I've learned about vintage paf humbuckers

Where do you get your PE spools and what difference do you hear? I've just been getting single-build from MWS.

 

[jeremy]

Re: "New" stuff that I've learned about vintage paf humbuckers

mws is where i used to get all my wire but i tried to get a 6+ lb spool of single formvar 42 and they said they dont have any and arent planning on having more but they still have the heavy 42. i still have enough single for a while but at some point ill need to track down another source.

its really hard to tell what the differences are or what causes the difference i guess. ive spun up two flat a5 strat pups one with each wire and there is a noticable difference with how much wire you can fit. i think i put 8200 turns on .688 x .187 magnets. the bigger wire had, obviously, less bobbin left but had a little less top end bite and a little more beef to the mids. is it due to the wire itself or the slightly wider coil or ???

basically if im doing something that there is plenty of room on the bobbin or i want a fatter coil ill used the thicker stuff, if i know its going to be tight or want a smaller bobbin ill use the thinner stuff. say a neck humbucker for a notoriously muddy guitar, id use the thinner stuff to keep the coil size smaller. on a thin sounding tele id use the big stuff to fatten up the coil. all my stuff is a disaster right now cause of moving but once i dig out my wire ill see what they call it.

what size spools do you usually buy out of curiosity?

 

[claytonc]

Re: "New" stuff that I've learned about vintage paf humbuckers

5. All plain enamel 42 ga. wire used in the 50's contained lead in the enamel coating as well as certain other chemicals now banned by the EPA. There is no lead in any of the enamel coating used these days. That would have a slight impact on the tone.

this explains the difference in color between paf PE and Pat.# and T-top wire.
Is it possible that Seymour uses old stock wire for the Antiquities and new production wire for Seth's, PG's etc....?

I have a hard time believing that most '59 pafs were double creme, but that is Tom Holmes speculating.

 

[open]

Re: "New" stuff that I've learned about vintage paf humbuckers

Great post,learned a lot.Thank you all for your input and lew for this thread.

 

[Zhangliqun]

Re: "New" stuff that I've learned about vintage paf humbuckers

basically if im doing something that there is plenty of room on the bobbin or i want a fatter coil ill used the thicker stuff, if i know its going to be tight or want a smaller bobbin ill use the thinner stuff. say a neck humbucker for a notoriously muddy guitar, id use the thinner stuff to keep the coil size smaller. on a thin sounding tele id use the big stuff to fatten up the coil. all my stuff is a disaster right now cause of moving but once i dig out my wire ill see what they call it.

what size spools do you usually buy out of curiosity?

I buy the 5 to 6 lb. 42 PE singlebuild. Obviously the thicker insulation means room for fewer turns and a fatter coil with the same number of turns. That in itself would widen the tone a touch. I was just wondering if there was an effect on coil capacitance or any of that other fancy stuff.

I also recently bought some double-build 42 formvar from MWS but haven't used it yet.

 

[jeremy]

Re: "New" stuff that I've learned about vintage paf humbuckers

i love the heavy formvar. you cant get alot of wire on but for neck and middle pups especially its great. even something like 5k sounds full and complex. i made a neck pup for one guy that came in like 4.4k and its still his favorite pup two years later.

i usually dont measure capacitance so im not sure. if i still have both those strat pups ill check em and see