No load tone pots. Do they really make a difference?

[Wound_Up]

Do they make a difference from a standard pot? I installed one expecting 10 to sound like the guitar did when I disconnected the tone pot from the circuit completely but it doesn't. In fact, it sounds the same on 10 as it does on 8. I hear no audible difference. I'm 100% sure it's a no load pot. I checked with a multimeter.

Is this normal for no load tone pots? I'm about ready to just disconnect it completely so it sounds like it did last time the tone pot was disconnected, before I swapped the CTS pots in.

Or am I missing something? Standard 50s wiring. Pots are all between 478k & 505k. Using 2 .015uf polypropylene 'orange drop' caps. Pickups are SD Seth Lover in the neck and 59 in the bridge.

 

[Gstring]

I have noticed minimal difference when the pot is 500k so don't bother to use anymore. But have found no load tonehelpful on 250k pots. Essential for a blender pot on a Strat...

 

[Clint 55]

Yes, no load on 10 is identical to not having a tone pot in the circuit. What I do since the effect is subtle is use 250k no load tone pots for everything. That way I know I have max bright on 10, a smooth transition from 10 to 9, and then have it get right into the darkening effect below 9. For me 500k tone pots don't have enough effect on the top half of the sweep, but some guys like em cuz they do color a bit in that range.

 

[eclecticsynergy]

If the guitar sounded different when you disconnected the tone pot completely, it should also sound like that with a no-load pot.
If it does not, something in the way it's wired is preventing this.
That's the whole point of a no-load: complete disconnection at the uppermost end of its sweep.

Yes, it's a subtler thing with 500K pots than with 250k, and perhaps less obvious with hotter, darker humbuckers.
Even so, since you heard a difference before, you really should be hearing one now.

What are the pickups in question - is it the Seth neck and the 59B? They're bright enough that I think the disconnect ought to be perceptible.
Any chance you can post a pic of the wiring?

 

[freefrog]

No-load tone pots or the absence of tone control make a difference by adding a few dB to the resonant peak of pickups.

If the rig used and the loudspeaker(s)/cab(s) promote the frequency of this peak, the difference will be noticeable. If they have a "dead spot" (frequential dip) where the resonance is located or if the sound goes through some low filter somewhere, the difference will be hardly noticeable if any.

IOW, the answer to the tittle of this topic is a question of context.

When we use here amps like a JC120 or Twin with the bright switch enabled, the difference is absolutely clear. Through a Boss Heavy Metal, it can't be detected. YMMV.

Electrically, the difference can be seen in the good ol' Helmuth Lemme webpage - difference between two 500k and a 500k volume + a no load = the curves in brown and green, approximatively... well, it translates the potential effect of bad pots with a resistance under their theoretical value but people will "get the picture" and it's not as if all 500k controls effectively measured 500k. ;-)

http://buildyourguitar.com/resources/lemme/secrets14.gif

 

[marcello252]

No-load tone pots or the absence of tone control make a difference by adding a few dB to the resonant peak of pickups.

that's sounds strange, since my no load pot actually is an open circuit in in 'click' position, I've tested with my multimeter.

 

[freefrog]

that's sounds strange, since my no load pot actually is an open circuit in in 'click' position, I've tested with my multimeter.

Yes (and as suggested by its name), a "no load" tone pot stops to bring any resistive load once full up... Yes, it's in itself (alone) an open circuit, hence the "click" heard when one passes from 10 to 9... but it doesn't suppress the resistive load of the volume control.

A 500k volume pot with a no-load tone control = a resistive load of 500k for the pickup(s).

Two 500k pots = a total resistive load of 250k for the pickup(s) since both pots are in parallel... And so on.

A wiring in "open circuit" would be one without volume control either, IOW without any pot. It can be done: some Kramer guitars had an on/off switch for that in the 80's. But it gives an extremely narrow peaky resonant frequency and wouldn't work with many transducers.

If ever it's not clear enough, I'll share real life measurements about that.

 

[marcello252]

ok, I did translate wrong, we agree that a load to ground (being a volume pot alone and/or a loading tone pot) has an effect on the pickup eq, that said we can use two no load pot for volume and tone to have the no-f**-load-at-all effect, although the resonant peak of the pickup would hit the stratosphere

 

[GuitarDoc]

I almost always use 500k pots all around and have never heard a difference between my pots all the way up and a "no-load" pot all the way up (or even no pots at all in the circuit).

But I now always wire a mini switch in the circuit to bypass the tone control completely. I find it convenient to be able to set my tone control where I like it then just flip a switch to bypass the tone pot, then just flip it back to go to my tone pot setting without having to rotate the knob trying to find it. It works great on the fly when switching back and forth from rhythm to lead.

So for that reason and the others mentioned by others here, I save my $$ and never buy a no-load pot.

 

['59]

You will easily hear the difference a no load pot makes when playing in your bedroom, you will never hear it on a stage

 

[GuitarDoc]

You will easily hear the difference a no load pot makes when playing in your bedroom, you will never hear it on a stage

My experience has been that you won't even hear the difference in your bedroom, at least with 500k pots.

 

[freefrog]

Let's not forget that if the effect of no-load is more or less noticeable, it's not only because of the gear used, as evoked in post 5, or because of acoustics (on stage vs at home) but also potentially because of... our ears. ;-) a tech was explaining somewhere that Matthias Jabs use(d) ear-buds involving some effect to make the sound brighter, albeit the tone was already painfully bright in the concert hall the last time I've seen Scorpions on stage. Presupposes that Matthias has lost his sensitivity to high frequencies. The example of Johnny Winter also comes to my mind: he had his amp with tone controls @ 0/10, except the treble set @ 10/10!

Personally, I check my hearing periodically and have noticed how my sensorial "bandwidth" is already reduced. Now, I was working yesterday on a guitar with a no-load control and the jump in brightness between 500k and no-load was still "crystal clear" to my ears. But it was through the same kind of bright circuit + loudspeakers than I mentioned in post 5; if I plug the same amp in my AlNiCo Cream loaded cab and with the bright switch disabled, the difference is no more noticeable to me. Maybe it would remain perceptible to younger players, I don't know...

Side note - No-load pots don't require to spend money, for the record. A normal pot can be changed in a no-load one in a few minutes.

 

[marcello252]

A normal pot can be changed in a no-load one in a few minutes.

cutting the conductive film, yes, I don't see it as mod for everyone anyway

 

[alex1fly]

Sliiiiiiiight difference when you listen really, really closely. Nothing a teeny bump on your EQ won't also do.

 

[freefrog]

cutting the conductive film, yes, I don't see it as mod for everyone anyway

Why not?

I find it quick n' easy to do with basic skills and basic tools.

I also find it useful, way beyond basic / conventional tone controls: I mount no-load pots almost as rotary switches enabling or disabling parallel dummy coils, for instance... and even noise cancelling coils : tone full up= pickup in single coil mode, dummy coil closed on itself. Tone @ 9.5/10 = noise cancelling coil between center lug and outer lug, and therefore in series between pickup and output... and it works wonderfully! ...

Even with basic tone controls it doesn't harm. People might be sensitive to the difference or not according to their own musical (g)ear, that's all.

 

[Wound_Up]

I wondered where this went. I thought I posted it at a different forum lol

Thanks guys. I appreciate all of the explanations. Sorry it took me so long to reply!

 

[Wound_Up]

No-load tone pots or the absence of tone control make a difference by adding a few dB to the resonant peak of pickups.

If the rig used and the loudspeaker(s)/cab(s) promote the frequency of this peak, the difference will be noticeable. If they have a "dead spot" (frequential dip) where the resonance is located or if the sound goes through some low filter somewhere, the difference will be hardly noticeable if any.

IOW, the answer to the tittle of this topic is a question of context.

When we use here amps like a JC120 or Twin with the bright switch enabled, the difference is absolutely clear. Through a Boss Heavy Metal, it can't be detected. YMMV.

Electrically, the difference can be seen in the good ol' Helmuth Lemme webpage - difference between two 500k and a 500k volume + a no load = the curves in brown and green, approximatively... well, it translates the potential effect of bad pots with a resistance under their theoretical value but people will "get the picture" and it's not as if all 500k controls effectively measured 500k. ;-)

http://buildyourguitar.com/resources/lemme/secrets14.gif

Now that I've taken the time to read this, it makes sense. I think part of the issue is that I had crappy Alpha pots to begin with. They all measured between 505 & 535k but when I put the CTS pots(all between 478 & 505k)in it was noticeably louder and just sounded better overall.

Those stock pots had issues. They crackled and apparently were holding back the SD's in my guitar because these pickups sound phenomenal now. They sounded great before, with the stock pots but those Alphas apparently had too much capacitance or something because they were definitely holding back these pickups.

I think it may be why I heard such a difference when I disconnected the tone pot when the Alphas were in there. Compared to now, where I hear basically no difference between no load and 8 on the CTS pot. Those Alpha pots were imparting something unwanted into the tone of the pickups it seems like. Maybe I'm way out in left field but that's how it seemed.