Overdrive pedal circuits built into guitar amps

Animal

Animal

Well-known member
The Ibanez TSA15H amp with its built in Tubescreamer has got me thinkin'.

There are lots of amps that are designed to simulate other amps in the one package, even modular ones such as the Randall RM series and the old Seymour Duncan Convertible. Plus there are the digital modelers with a gazillion options.

Though, it turns out the ultimate sound for a significant number of guitarists seems to be the sound of a classic pedal into a classic tube amp. I often see a recurrence of popular pedals or variations of classic designs being used in rigs: TS9, SD1, Rat, Rangemaster, Big Muff, Fuzz Face etc.

To my knowledge, there seems to be a lack of amps that integrate these classic circuits as a switchable option. Are there any other amps that do this or more specifically have been marketed this way as a feature?

Has anyone attempted a modular pedal-circuit design into a tube amplifier yet? I thought it might be kind of cool if you could have say a Plexi style amp and have the on-board option to switch between a TS9 or Big Muff circuit to kick it in the pants. Remove and install certain modules depending on what you're after. Are there any potential improvements in tone, feel, dynamics, noise with having such a circuit built-in rather than being run in front of the amp the traditional way? I'm guessing it would be an expensive and limiting way to go about replacing what is a simple setup. Though, it doesn't seem too far fetched of an idea for at least a company like Boss/Roland to churn out on a mass production line.
 
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Re: Overdrive pedal circuits built into guitar amps

Why? It's so much easier to have pedals at your feet.
 
Re: Overdrive pedal circuits built into guitar amps

Well part of this crazy idea of mine is that it might sound better integrated and you wouldn't have to worry about setting up a board with all the cables, power supply n' stuff .etc

Though I do realise it's quite an extreme way to go about it, it's just something I've been wondering about.
 
Re: Overdrive pedal circuits built into guitar amps

Arguably, this is precisely what MusicMan amplifiers of the Seventies amounted to. Solid state overdrive into a valve power stage.

Fender did a "recording" version of the Princeton Reverb amplifier with Compression and solid state overdrive built-in.

IMO, building a pedal-type overdrive/distortion into an amplifier in this way reduces the player's options rather than expanding them.
 
Re: Overdrive pedal circuits built into guitar amps

The first issue with it I see off the bat is that pedals run on 9V DC while tubes run on 300+V DC. Tube heaters run on 6.3VAC or DC and some are capable of 12.6VAC or DC. The first issue is having to have either a separate winding or transformer for the lower voltage of the pedal circuit. Depending upon the amp design, this can be a minor or a major hurdle. For instance, in my tube preamp I run 12.6VDC to the heaters, so its no problem to put in a muff variant or ts variant and run it on 12.6VDC or drop it down to 9V even. But, power tubes like EL34 (6CA7), EL84 (6BQ5), 6V6, 6L6GC, can only be run on 6.3V heaters (notice the 6 at the beginning of each tube type vs. 12AX7, 12AT7, etc.) On those, I am stuck now with a voltage that is 2/3rd the typical supply voltage for these pedals. You will have a different sound, as a result. It is possible to drop the high voltage supply down to 9V or something usable from over 300V, but with that high voltage winding, you usually have limited current output capability. So you have to watch your current consumption from your PT. Again, something extra to think about that is easily remedied by using a battery outside of the amp.

Next issue is simple marketing. It sorta makes sense for ibanez to offer a Tube screamer in an amp, as the TS is their design. Likewise, I wouldn't be shocked to see an EH Big Muff amp. But its sort of gimmicky right out the gate, and while I may use a tube screamer on my board, Someone else may not. So you'd have to market the amp as a great sounding amp, and oh by the way it also has x pedal built in. But not everyone may like x pedal, or your interpretation of it for that matter. Someone may never use it, and have to see it looking at them on the faceplate of their amp every time they use it.

I think its a good idea if someone uses a certain pedal for their signature tone, it can certainly be done by a custom builder or something. But modular preamps is a whole different ballgame than modular pedals. Technically, all pedals are modular already. Why confine them to an amp chassis? I could see if Randall released one of their modular preamp models that was a fuzz or something but widescale I just don't think it has the mass market appeal for it to actually catch on.
 
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Re: Overdrive pedal circuits built into guitar amps

Its cheap and easy to mod pedals, or swap them round if somethings not working for you anymore - Bugger of a thing to do if its your amp.

I like the idea of a nice tube amp set clean (ish) with an arsenal of drive pedals for different applications. I'm a bit like an ADD sufferer, one day I'm playing metal the next blues. Hard to get that out of one amp really.
 
Re: Overdrive pedal circuits built into guitar amps

Those Seymour duncans were Great amps that somehow failed to set the market on fire.
Anyway....re reinventing the wheel (hard wiring effects into an amp)....
1. If its built in before the circuit preamp then its really the same as just using pedals, except with less versatility...and you would still need footswitches to turn them on and off.
2. If pedals or modules (maybe like a sansamp) were used in place of the preamp. no need because you can already juts chain up pedals or preamps and plug them straight into the fx return on modern amps thus by passing the preamp (if thats what you are after)
3. Hard wiring pedals into the fx loop will just cut down on your flexibility again.
IN short....the way most amps and pedals interact is a pretty good sounding and flexible system. Hardwiring them into the amp will just make everything a little less flexible.

However...those new ibanez amps.. i love the sound of a 6v6 based amp and i love the sound of a tube screamer for a bit of mid boost and dirt....so it a really nice setup and cheap too. Personally i only really use a clean amp (mostly a fender princeton or an old musicman) and a ts or a fulldrive so for me it looks like a lovely little amp that does a lot of great sounds for low dollars. However i guess that rig is not for everyone.

oh yeah....one of my fave amps is an old musicman 210 sixty five. Apparently these things have what more or less amounts to a tube screamer circuit in the preamp. It was pretty sweet, but for any mm afficionados out there...swapping the clipping diodes for regular leds gives more headroom, more clarity and smoother gain.
Other musicman amps such as the RP even had built in phasers! cool...but never super popular....
There of course is the roland jazz chorus amps which have been a mainstay of working musicians for years.
also...a lot of marshal amps since the 80s have been using inbuilt clipping circuits in various parts of the amplification process...many of which are footswitchable so i guess thats not too far from what you have been asking about (its just that the circuits are not famous names like a ts or sd1 or even a big muff)
 
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Re: Overdrive pedal circuits built into guitar amps

^ I missed that completely, but you are spot on about losing flexibility in effect placement. Suppose you want your chorus -after- your tube screamer. Easy with pedals. AFAIK, not possible with the TS amp. Unless it has a loop, but thats still different than Guitar -> TS -> Chorus -> Amp, thats Guitar -> TS -> Amp -> Chorus
 
Re: Overdrive pedal circuits built into guitar amps

Part of my modular idea was that you could have a number of pedal circuit modules arrangeable in any order. Some before the preamp and some after in-between the pre and power. This would eliminate having to use long lengths of instrument cable running back and forth across a stage. A switch-box though would also have to be designed to enable footswitchin' between circuits.
 
Re: Overdrive pedal circuits built into guitar amps

a lotta guys use rack mounts and switching systems etc do do exactly what you are describing already
 
Re: Overdrive pedal circuits built into guitar amps

Rhino amps made an 'Yngvie' amp with his DOD ? pedal built into the front end and I think some Dumbles had a TS type circuit built into one channel.
 
Re: Overdrive pedal circuits built into guitar amps

A lot of modern amps with the uber tight, over the top distortion actually DO have some kind of diode or ic boost in the input section. Supposedly, it helps keep the distortion tighter/crisper than an all tube pre. I'm no amp designer, but it makes sense to me.
 
Re: Overdrive pedal circuits built into guitar amps

formula73 said:
A lot of modern amps with the uber tight, over the top distortion actually DO have some kind of diode or ic boost in the input section. Supposedly, it helps keep the distortion tighter/crisper than an all tube pre. I'm no amp designer, but it makes sense to me.
Click to expand...

+1

The Marshall 6101 30th Anniversary series has its fair share of ICs in the signal path. The JMP-1 contains a shedload of them.
 
Re: Overdrive pedal circuits built into guitar amps

Animal said:
Part of my modular idea was that you could have a number of pedal circuit modules arrangeable in any order. Some before the preamp and some after in-between the pre and power. This would eliminate having to use long lengths of instrument cable running back and forth across a stage. A switch-box though would also have to be designed to enable footswitchin' between circuits.
Click to expand...

yeah but why introduce an entire new modular system of switching effects in and out of amplifiers when we've been using pedals for 60 years with no problems?

it's not broken; don't try to fix it
 
Re: Overdrive pedal circuits built into guitar amps

Empty Pockets said:
yeah but why introduce an entire new modular system of switching effects in and out of amplifiers when we've been using pedals for 60 years with no problems?

it's not broken; don't try to fix it
Click to expand...

Because it's fun to explore different possibilities even if they are mostly redundant, even if they are just fleeting ideas. Even for the sake of discussion.

Though I'm pretty much agreeing with what you and everyone has else has said regarding how the traditional way is often the best, it's interesting to see what other gizmos out there are possible, even if I have no use for them.

BTW it's also arguable that a traditional pedal setup has not been met without problems in the past.
 
Re: Overdrive pedal circuits built into guitar amps

I can run my SD-1 into any amp I've got. I like the way it sounds. I don't know why I would (arguably) pay more to lose so much flexibility. I can't take it out and plug it into another amp.

Secondly, it's a modded SD-1. I'm much more scared of modding amps than I am of modding pedals. Plus, it's a lot easier to work on a board that's say, 3 inches by 5 inches than it is to pull an entire chassis out, drain the filter caps, work, plug back in, test, lather rinse, and repeat.
 
Re: Overdrive pedal circuits built into guitar amps

I guess I just don't understand this "pedal in an amp" concept. I have an OD built into my amp - the volume knob.
 
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