P90 Sized Options

treyhaislip

treyhaislip

New member
Have a Warmoth 7/8 Tele (Mahogany body, Mahogany Fatback neck with Ebony board, Tune-O-Matic Bridge w/Stop Tailpiece) loaded with Lindy Fralin P90s (ordered thru a Fralin dealer.) Not a fan no matter how I adjust the height. Guitar rings out really well unplugged, so I feel it is not the guitar that I'm having issues with.

Tone is very muddy even with 500k Pots, when I adjust the height it goes from muddy to meh. I do remember it sounding better live when I built it but that was with a different rig (Line 6 Duoverb then vs Yamaha THR & Fender Bassbreaker now.)

This is my only guitar with the Gibson scale--not sure if P90s are what I want. Does anyone make a PAF style pickup in the P90 size?
 
there are humbuckers in a p90 size, yes. im a little surprised the fralin p90s are muddy though. are they the normal wind? not humcancelling, correct? i think lindy uses a4 magnets unless something else is asked for.
 
The most famous p90 size humbucker is the mini humbucker that became famous on Les Paul deluxe's...

They are excellent pups to thin out an overly thick guitar... Overall a wonderfully balanced humbucker tone with less thickness which can translate into less mud.

The other famous p90 humbucker is the firebird... If the mini humbucker takes you to neutral, the firebird takes you to a bright, even single coilish vibe.

They also mix and match very well with p90s and the fact that they are truly humbucking is a big advantage in a noisy environment.

I've wired a lot of guitars with minis and Firebirds mixed with p90s... If you keep the p90 in the neck, you tend to get the warmth of the p90 for thick solos with more clarity in the bridge.

If you keep an underwoundish p90 in the bridge, you could end up with a nice clear clean bridge and get a little more bite out of a firebird neck or balance with a mini neck.

And as much as I love p90s, those Firebirds and many humbuckers have saved me in many gigs where the p90 just couldn't handle noise.
 
I was surprised as well--definitely Fralin P90s, very well made but just can't get them to sound good clean to my ears.

Thanks for the suggestions--I do like the idea of trying Firebird pickups. Great suggestion!
 
treyhaislip said:
I was surprised as well--definitely Fralin P90s, very well made but just can't get them to sound good clean to my ears.

Thanks for the suggestions--I do like the idea of trying Firebird pickups. Great suggestion!
Click to expand...
I have Lollar firebird pickups in my Kauer Banshee (firebird style) that are more like a big tele or strat than a humbucker. Definitely have their own vibe.
 
Your guitar is an all-mahogany Tele-type with a mahogany Gibson scale neck. Right off the bat that sounds very middy/blah/muddy to my imagination.

While I've had a couple P-90s that sounded blah/flat/even muddyish, it's never been from a major maker like Fralin. The fact that your guitar "rings out" when unplugged really doesn't mean much, but could be an indicator that something in the electric signal should be tweaked. I would suggest that your amp is the weak link here, not the pup. However, if it were me, I'd try replacing the magnets in the P-90 first (especially if the existing ones are A4). Put in a couple A7s in and see if that gets you where you want to be.

But, when you lowered the pup did you also raise the poles? That would be important for cleaning up a pup...not just lowering it.

Finally, if you can't get the brightness from your P-90 that you want, then a Firebird mini would be the next step (or a better amp).
 
Update: I've got back to the drawing board and tried to see if the problem was me/my rig as Lindy Fralin has a really great reputation.

I've found that the neck pickup can get some excellent tones but the bridge is just no doing it for me.

I went with the 10% overwound in the bridge...it comes out thin--gnarly sounding but very thin. I'm open to the idea of keeping the neck--any advice on helping the bridge? (and my lapsteel through the same setup does NOT sound thin at all.)
 
"I went with the 10% overwound in the bridge...it comes out thin--gnarly sounding but very thin."

So, it sounds like you bought a new bridge pup, but you didn't tell us anything about it...brand, model, magnet, DCR, Custom Shop, etc.

10% overwound WHAT??

Just to clarify: mini humbuckers are not P-90 size humbuckers. Yes, they fit in a P-90 rout in the guitar but they need and adapter mounting ring to do so (they are much shorter than a normal/PAF humbucker).
 
I couldn't edit my post so...

"I went with the 10% overwound in the bridge...it comes out thin--gnarly sounding but very thin."

So, it sounds like you bought a new bridge pup, but you didn't tell us anything about it...brand, model, magnet, DCR, Custom Shop, etc.
It's a bit strange that you went from "muddy" to "very thin" by getting 10% overwound. All else being equal, that just doesn't happen.

So, 10% overwound WHAT??

Also, just to clarify: mini humbuckers are not P-90 size humbuckers. Yes, they fit in a P-90 rout in the guitar but they need and adapter mounting ring to do so (they are much shorter than a normal/PAF humbucker). P-90s are as distinct from minis as they are from humbuckers and single coils. Those are 4 totally different pups in size and sound. zz0.l6j2d8rfhzz
 
GuitarDoc said:
I couldn't edit my post so...

"I went with the 10% overwound in the bridge...it comes out thin--gnarly sounding but very thin."

So, it sounds like you bought a new bridge pup, but you didn't tell us anything about it...brand, model, magnet, DCR, Custom Shop, etc.
It's a bit strange that you went from "muddy" to "very thin" by getting 10% overwound. All else being equal, that just doesn't happen.

So, 10% overwound WHAT??

Also, just to clarify: mini humbuckers are not P-90 size humbuckers. Yes, they fit in a P-90 rout in the guitar but they need and adapter mounting ring to do so (they are much shorter than a normal/PAF humbucker). P-90s are as distinct from minis as they are from humbuckers and single coils. Those are 4 totally different pups in size and sound. zz0.l6j2d8rfhzz
Click to expand...


I have not changed anything on the guitar--just settings on the amps/pedal trying to get back to a usable tone (I no longer have most of my prior rig when I was gigging with this guitar.) The pickups are Lindy Fralin P90s with the bridge being overwound (I think his current option offers 5%, I ordered 10% at the time of the build.) I built this based off of a friend's guitar that he let me borrow (Gibson scale, all Mahogany, same pickups, same hardware, etc.)

I was able to clean up the mud from the neck pickup but there are definitely pedals it does not like at all (doesn't seem to like Mad Professor pedals.) Not really the tone I'm after but I've gotten it usable. The bridge is where I'm not having any luck (and in turn not feeling the neck and bridge together.) It's sounding thin and raspy even when I try to dial down the volume and tone. I've tried it with multiple pedals and I'm not getting anything I like.

I am no longer playing at gig volumes (not currently gigging for that matter) so that might be part of it. My other guitars have 50s style Strat pickups and a mix of Goldfoils and Lapsteel pickups. I can easily switch between the other Strats and Tele without tweaking anything on my amps and pedals (current setup includes Yamaha THR100HD, modified Fender Bassbreaker, Texas Heat and Cannabis Rex speakers, multiple Mad Professor pedals. an Eastwood Compressor pedal and a Goodrich Sounds Baby Bloomer pedal.) To put into perspective, the Mojo Pickups Lapsteel pickup is extremely bright but VERY full sounding through this rig—I would not have expected the P90 bridge to be thin when the Lapsteel pickup is significantly more full sounding.
​
So I do know my rig is different--I don't have the Line 6 Duoverb nor am I playing at very loud volumes. Everything is wired properly and the pickups are very quiet. Both pickups are loud so I don't think anything is broken. So maybe I'm just no longer digging P90s?
 
From my perspective I think you're going to need experiment a little bit.. it does sound like you have a dark guitar... So overwinding the bridge pickup reduces the highs, and although Fralins are good, overwinding may have caused it to be a poor fit.

With that in mind, I would purchase any inexpensive p90 out there and substitute it for the bridge. That should bring the high end back and help you understand what a p90 sounds like in that particular guitar.

And that could be your solution or, you could move on to other pups ( like a firebird )if you need more high end.
 
I still don't get it. You started by saying your P-90 is very muddy sounding. Now you say it sounds very thin. In and of itself, that makes no sense. Certainly playing at gig volumes can make a thin sounding setup sound more full and even huge tonally.

But if your lap steel sounds "extremely bright but VERY full sounding through this rig", I can't imagine "the P90 bridge to be thin when the Lapsteel pickup is significantly more full sounding", especially if your P-90 is 10% overwound. There is something else going on here.

Are you sure you have the bridge P-90 (10% overwound) in the BRIDGE position and not in the neck. And the neck P-90 is not in the bridge? From what you describe...the neck was muddy and the bridge is thin...it sounds like you've got the two pups mixed up.
 
A quick check if the DC resistance with a DMM will tell that story right away. I've not had an overwound P-90 sound thin. My overwound Lollar sounds HUGE!!! And it is tapped for a more 50's P-90 sound, which still sounds pretty full.
 
GuitarDoc said:
I still don't get it. You started by saying your P-90 is very muddy sounding. Now you say it sounds very thin. In and of itself, that makes no sense. Certainly playing at gig volumes can make a thin sounding setup sound more full and even huge tonally.

But if your lap steel sounds "extremely bright but VERY full sounding through this rig", I can't imagine "the P90 bridge to be thin when the Lapsteel pickup is significantly more full sounding", especially if your P-90 is 10% overwound. There is something else going on here.

Are you sure you have the bridge P-90 (10% overwound) in the BRIDGE position and not in the neck. And the neck P-90 is not in the bridge? From what you describe...the neck was muddy and the bridge is thin...it sounds like you've got the two pups mixed up.
Click to expand...
​
I haven't played this guitar in over 2 years. I dusted off the case, restrung the guitar and played through both of my current amps (that I did not own when I first built and gigged this guitar) and got a lot of mud and meh.

The guitar is direct mounted Soapbar P90s so I am more limited on pickup options compared to say a swimming pool routed Strat with a pickguard. Since it is my only Gibson Scale guitar and it is all Mahogany, I thought what PAF options do I have to try and retain some of the "LP-ish" vibe...hence my original post.

I have since tried to dial in the tone on this guitar and cleared up the mud I was getting in the neck but the bridge is still meh. Cleans in the bridge sound thin and Gain sounds like an angry bee...I'm not finding something usable in the bridge. Its very loud and definitely higher output than the neck—just not doing it for me.

No, the bridge and neck aren't switched....wasn't when I built the guitar, wasn't when I played my last gig over 2 years ago, and isn't now.

ErikH said:
A quick check if the DC resistance with a DMM will tell that story right away. I've not had an overwound P-90 sound thin. My overwound Lollar sounds HUGE!!! And it is tapped for a more 50's P-90 sound, which still sounds pretty full.
Click to expand...

The bridge definitely is hotter and louder--I will test it this weekend when I have more time. Also will see if something is going on with the wiring.

Lollar is one company I haven't tried but really want to--really like the tones I've heard from his pickups.
 
OK.
But still, something doesn't make sense.

Do you know what models they are?

Could it be that you have a more modern (higher DCR) model in the neck and a more vintage (low DCR) model in the bridge? Even if the bridge is 10% overwound, if it is a low DCR model with A3 magnets to begin with, it could sound thin compared to a high DCR neck model with ceramic magnets.

There is no voodoo involved. No ghosts or boogeymen. Everything has a rational explanation even if we fail to see it initially.
So it would help if you could tell us the specific models of each pup. The DCR of each pup. And some good clear pics that show all of the wiring, soldering joints, and connections in the control cavity.

We'll try to get this figured out for you.
 
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