PCB evolution, you may have thought it was better by now...

[Ewizard]

So as I usually do, I randomly pick YT videos to watch. Many are related to electronics, as I am a guitar amp builder and electronics tinkering machine. It is often argued that PCB guitar amps are just as good as PTP ( Point To Point ) constructed amps; some may even say superior. I am in the camp as a builder, that PCB construction can be theoretically better, but that the latest and greatest technologies for PCB design are often not employed to make it so. Case in point, a video popped up that shows a very recent design technology that proves clearly that most PCB designs are not made for the best technical operation, but to meet an aesthetic with only a consideration to electrical performance. I.E. your PCB circuit boards are made to look good first and perform well secondly. You can interchange the priority if you like, but in the end, you still have the compromise.

Given the simplicity of 99% of guitar amps, you can almost certainly see that they are both not complex, nor subject to the need for the most advanced and deliberate PCB design. I state openly that PCB is inferior for guitar amp production only because it is not as robust and is not a lifetime construction method. If you want an amp that will last till the end of time, you do it with PTP construction.

A recent offering from Fender, the Tonemaster series, is an example of meeting a bottom line in production. Fender utilizes an ICE power supply and amp module unit. ICE is a company that you, your neighbor, and even your worst enemy can go to and buy a PSU, DSP, and or amplifier module that meets your needs at a very affordable price, especially if you are at the enterprise level. The ICE units are very good, in fact, they are probably so good that they are a part of a pretty large percentage of the everyday products that musicians use. I myself have looked at ICE as a way for a solution to devices I was interested in building. Absolutely nothing wrong with ICE. I only say this because you can see visually that 99% of all modern devices are made to the Aesthetic first, performance second model.

This is as moot a point as breathing water, but as I argue with some individuals about the " Quality of modern PCB design ", we see a glimpse into the reality of it; that only within the past few years has even the best of the best CAD software started introducing theoretical best practices or a way to do PCB construction in free form. PTP construction is an art form, it is art, and it is an art form that from a functional standpoint, will last FOREVER. Depending on who you ask, PTP construction may even transcend art and function in the quantum realm... I am not so stuck on PTP as being a quantum mechanics art form as much as I am of the mind that it is, for the function of guitar amp building, the only proper way to make an amp that you will spend as much as you did on your wife's wedding ring, and will actually stay with you for the rest of your life...

So are PCB-based amps better? They are equal in every way to PTP up until the point they break. PCB is a more economical way to build a guitar amp. You could see it as an analog to above where you buy your wife a $10,000 ring vs giving her a Cracker Jack Box ring... Which marriage will last longer? There is always the .01% that will break the mold, but when it comes to amplifier building you can't bank on .01%, you want a 99.99% design, where you know that it will last FOREVER. Sounding good is easy, it's sounding good forever that is hard, just ask Fender, Marshall, VOX, and many more why they have designs that are still copied 60 years later. It's because those amps are still around that we have a reference to compare to. No one, NO ONE, will be looking back 60 years from now saying how do we remake a Blackstar St. James amp in modern technology... There are two types of amplifier buyers, those who buy toys, or those who buy the best that money can buy. I was at one point a buyer of toys, now I want an amp that stands the test of time, one that will go to my grandchildren's grandchildren, and then on.

 

[80's_Thrash_Metal]

Very interesting, thanks for sharing.

 

[Mincer]

There are two types of amplifier buyers, those who buy toys, or those who buy the best that money can buy. I was at one point a buyer of toys, now I want an amp that stands the test of time, one that will go to my grandchildren's grandchildren, and then on.

There are some grey areas in there, too...it isn't just a binary decision. Most working musicians I know strike a balance between cost and tone, and many don't bring their most expensive amps to the average gig. What they use live is far from toys, though.

 

[NegativeEase]

So as I usually do, I randomly pick YT videos to watch. Many are related to electronics, as I am a guitar amp builder and electronics tinkering machine. It is often argued that PCB guitar amps are just as good as PTP ( Point To Point ) constructed amps; some may even say superior. I am in the camp as a builder, that PCB construction can be theoretically better, but that the latest and greatest technologies for PCB design are often not employed to make it so. Case in point, a video popped up that shows a very recent design technology that proves clearly that most PCB designs are not made for the best technical operation, but to meet an aesthetic with only a consideration to electrical performance. I.E. your PCB circuit boards are made to look good first and perform well secondly. You can interchange the priority if you like, but in the end, you still have the compromise.

Given the simplicity of 99% of guitar amps, you can almost certainly see that they are both not complex, nor subject to the need for the most advanced and deliberate PCB design. I state openly that PCB is inferior for guitar amp production only because it is not as robust and is not a lifetime construction method. If you want an amp that will last till the end of time, you do it with PTP construction.

A recent offering from Fender, the Tonemaster series, is an example of meeting a bottom line in production. Fender utilizes an ICE power supply and amp module unit. ICE is a company that you, your neighbor, and even your worst enemy can go to and buy a PSU, DSP, and or amplifier module that meets your needs at a very affordable price, especially if you are at the enterprise level. The ICE units are very good, in fact, they are probably so good that they are a part of a pretty large percentage of the everyday products that musicians use. I myself have looked at ICE as a way for a solution to devices I was interested in building. Absolutely nothing wrong with ICE. I only say this because you can see visually that 99% of all modern devices are made to the Aesthetic first, performance second model.

This is as moot a point as breathing water, but as I argue with some individuals about the " Quality of modern PCB design ", we see a glimpse into the reality of it; that only within the past few years has even the best of the best CAD software started introducing theoretical best practices or a way to do PCB construction in free form. PTP construction is an art form, it is art, and it is an art form that from a functional standpoint, will last FOREVER. Depending on who you ask, PTP construction may even transcend art and function in the quantum realm... I am not so stuck on PTP as being a quantum mechanics art form as much as I am of the mind that it is, for the function of guitar amp building, the only proper way to make an amp that you will spend as much as you did on your wife's wedding ring, and will actually stay with you for the rest of your life...

So are PCB-based amps better? They are equal in every way to PTP up until the point they break. PCB is a more economical way to build a guitar amp. You could see it as an analog to above where you buy your wife a $10,000 ring vs giving her a Cracker Jack Box ring... Which marriage will last longer? There is always the .01% that will break the mold, but when it comes to amplifier building you can't bank on .01%, you want a 99.99% design, where you know that it will last FOREVER. Sounding good is easy, it's sounding good forever that is hard, just ask Fender, Marshall, VOX, and many more why they have designs that are still copied 60 years later. It's because those amps are still around that we have a reference to compare to. No one, NO ONE, will be looking back 60 years from now saying how do we remake a Blackstar St. James amp in modern technology... There are two types of amplifier buyers, those who buy toys, or those who buy the best that money can buy. I was at one point a buyer of toys, now I want an amp that stands the test of time, one that will go to my grandchildren's grandchildren, and then on.

If anyone has issue with large run PCB issues, you can always design and make your own PCBs is a nice solution for quality and mitigating PCB issues... My pops does it weekly in his retirement and I dabble when needed....

I use a USA maker of PCBs for the highest quality boards -who makes them only 10 miles from me. -but I ran into the owner of that company at a party for a very large amp manufacturer and he confided that their machines are for prototyping only these days -and the have a Chinese mfg actually make the orders....

so much for boutique USA made boards.... however, the Chinese ones he was delivering were great -It's all about staff, equipment and QC -doesnt matter the location.

Personally, I prefer PTP for guitar amp stuff, because honestly -guitar electronics is a 1 to 3 on the electronic complexity scale (using a 1-10 scale) and for making your own stuff PCBs just arent required or preferred for most things.

 

[GuitarStv]

There are well designed PCBs that can last for ages and be repaired about as easily as PTP. Mesa for example, make really good PCB amps that can be repaired and maintained.

 

[NegativeEase]

There are well designed PCBs that can last for ages and be repaired about as easily as PTP. Mesa for example, make really good PCB amps that can be repaired and maintained.

Yeah, I'd imagine Mesa has to make close to perfect ones, as their feature list on their amps creates such a larger circuit complication than the average amp..

Peavey had to have made some great ones... I mean I have Mach and other Peavey Amps still running fine after 45 years.

 

[ErikH]

The Marshall JCM 900 MkIII 2100 head I had was PCB but the power tubes where mounted to the chassis and wired to the PCB. They were not on it. I'd have to find the pics I took of the inside when I had it but I think the pre-amp tubes were mounted to the PCB. It was a really well designed amp and very reliable. I had to replace the power transformer after some years and when that went it took a few other parts with it but the PCB itself was not harmed. Sometimes I wish I still had it but my back is perfectly OK not having to move it.

 

[NegativeEase]

The Marshall JCM 900 MkIII 2100 head I had was PCB but the power tubes where mounted to the chassis and wired to the PCB. They were not on it. I'd have to find the pics I took of the inside when I had it but I think the pre-amp tubes were mounted to the PCB. It was a really well designed amp and very reliable. I had to replace the power transformer after some years and when that went it took a few other parts with it but the PCB itself was not harmed. Sometimes I wish I still had it but my back is perfectly OK not having to move it.

Tubes not direct mounted to PCB is a really smart move IMO

 

[NegativeEase]

The Marshall JCM 900 MkIII 2100 head I had was PCB but the power tubes where mounted to the chassis and wired to the PCB. They were not on it. I'd have to find the pics I took of the inside when I had it but I think the pre-amp tubes were mounted to the PCB. It was a really well designed amp and very reliable. I had to replace the power transformer after some years and when that went it took a few other parts with it but the PCB itself was not harmed. Sometimes I wish I still had it but my back is perfectly OK not having to move it.

Also Daughter board PCB for the dials is smart -removes stress from main board

 

[NegativeEase]

Also Daughter board PCB for the dials is smart -removes stress from main board

503 error wont let me add: although you usually only see this design mistake on combo with upward facing dials -rare

 

[Ewizard]

There are some grey areas in there, too...it isn't just a binary decision. Most working musicians I know strike a balance between cost and tone, and many don't bring their most expensive amps to the average gig. What they use live is far from toys, though.

I was being a bit tongue in cheek; of course there is a middle ground, but the point was more that some will buy the cheapest they can find, while the others do not care about the price at all. Those in the middle find a compromise, they have the champagne dream on a beer budget. This subject ( the OP ) is rather contradictory for some. There are truly those that believe PCB is as good as it comes. I can prove over and over again that form over function is what leads the PCB design market. You can make pictures with your PCB traces if you want... I'm not crazy, just realistic about the longevity of PCB design for an object that gets hot, moves around a lot, and inspires you to make art.

One of the most expensive amps in the world to buy are original Trainwrecks made in the '90s by Ken Fischer. He had three or four basic designs that had constant evolutionary tweaks to make that amp ( which were all given a female name ) its own unique sound. He did so by listening to music that was very specific in genre while building any given amp to inspire the build. He built his amps in true PTP construction with flying leads and components connected directly to each other with minimal tag board usage. He believed in 3-dimensional space for his amp builds and would move a wire or component in all directions to achieve the desired sound or effect. He was an EXTREMELY Neurotic and particular person with some other very crazy ideas. He believed that wire had a direction of energy flow, and went to great lengths to shroud his work in mystery by gooping and concealing circuit topology in the name of temperature control and locking the part into its 3-D space... While I do believe it is probably smart to shroud your circuit design so as to not allow it to be copied and lose potential income, I certainly don't feel you need to go to that sort of effort. I mentioned earlier about art and the Quantum realm, Ken and Alex Dumble kind of take the cake on that. Go figure they have the most expensive amps money can buy...

I guess my point is function over form is probably what makes amplifiers truly be what they are, an extension of their player. To what degree is the question? I build amps, but I can't say that I would ever go to that length to build one. I probably won't ever have an amp worth a house either? In either case, as it is right now, PCB amps will never transcend beyond what they are, simply a tool that makes noise.

 

[Mincer]

I was being a bit tongue in cheek; of course there is a middle ground, but the point was more that some will buy the cheapest they can find, while the others do not care about the price at all.

It is that middle ground where most performing musicians live.

 

[misterwhizzy]

It is often argued that PCB guitar amps are just as good as PTP ( Point To Point ) constructed amps; some may even say superior.

Who's arguing this? We get it. Point-to-point is easier to repair, sounds just as good or better, lasts longer, and costs more money. You seem to have an agenda and use a whole lot of words to portray one side of an argument no one else is having.

 

[GuitarStv]

I was being a bit tongue in cheek; of course there is a middle ground, but the point was more that some will buy the cheapest they can find, while the others do not care about the price at all. Those in the middle find a compromise, they have the champagne dream on a beer budget. This subject ( the OP ) is rather contradictory for some. There are truly those that believe PCB is as good as it comes. I can prove over and over again that form over function is what leads the PCB design market. You can make pictures with your PCB traces if you want... I'm not crazy, just realistic about the longevity of PCB design for an object that gets hot, moves around a lot, and inspires you to make art.

One of the most expensive amps in the world to buy are original Trainwrecks made in the '90s by Ken Fischer. He had three or four basic designs that had constant evolutionary tweaks to make that amp ( which were all given a female name ) its own unique sound. He did so by listening to music that was very specific in genre while building any given amp to inspire the build. He built his amps in true PTP construction with flying leads and components connected directly to each other with minimal tag board usage. He believed in 3-dimensional space for his amp builds and would move a wire or component in all directions to achieve the desired sound or effect. He was an EXTREMELY Neurotic and particular person with some other very crazy ideas. He believed that wire had a direction of energy flow, and went to great lengths to shroud his work in mystery by gooping and concealing circuit topology in the name of temperature control and locking the part into its 3-D space... While I do believe it is probably smart to shroud your circuit design so as to not allow it to be copied and lose potential income, I certainly don't feel you need to go to that sort of effort. I mentioned earlier about art and the Quantum realm, Ken and Alex Dumble kind of take the cake on that. Go figure they have the most expensive amps money can buy...

I guess my point is function over form is probably what makes amplifiers truly be what they are, an extension of their player. To what degree is the question? I build amps, but I can't say that I would ever go to that length to build one. I probably won't ever have an amp worth a house either? In either case, as it is right now, PCB amps will never transcend beyond what they are, simply a tool that makes noise.

Man, I definitely don't want the guy building my amp to be stupid enough to believe that wires are directional. It's fucking electronics, not magic . . . and if you believe anyone who tells you differently, I've got an NFT of a bridge to sell you.

 

[Ewizard]

Who's arguing this? We get it. Point-to-point is easier to repair, sounds just as good or better, lasts longer, and costs more money. You seem to have an agenda and use a whole lot of words to portray one side of an argument no one else is having.

I guess you don't read the same forums topics as I do? No agenda on my part, but your rude commentary fixed everything...

 

[NegativeEase]

Man, I definitely don't want the guy building my amp to be stupid enough to believe that wires are directional. It's ****ing electronics, not magic . . . and if you believe anyone who tells you differently, I've got an NFT of a bridge to sell you.

I used to pick Ken's brain in conversation in the 90s often at various events and on phone when he would can our studio (I worked for a quite esoteric microphone guru who was Ken's friend)

-I don't remember his being as outwardly weird as one might take from EWizard's description IMO, but then again, I was on a lot of drugs then -so maybe...

 

[NegativeEase]

Who's arguing this? We get it. Point-to-point is easier to repair, sounds just as good or better, lasts longer, and costs more money. You seem to have an agenda and use a whole lot of words to portray one side of an argument no one else is having.

I feel a Wiz off brewing...... battle of wizzes.... mono e mono ...Wiz to the death!

 

[Ewizard]

I will not say I have a first-hand account of the " stories ", but there have been a few articles I have read and other still-living friends of his ( Bob Gjika for instance who also has a belief in wire direction... ) that have accounted that he had some rather interesting quirks if you will when it came to building his amps. A few of those quirks were the ones I mentioned. I am not going to argue that two or three rather eccentric characters ( Ken, Alex and Bob ) who have pretty much made history in the guitar amplifier world are wrong or actually crazy, but they sure don't make it easy either way. Some old Dumble interviews have him expressing that electrons can survive in the vacuum of space of a tube better than they do in the crystal lattice of a transistor, in regards to an amp he built using a FET transistor for its input...

Was Ken crazy? Absolutely not. Did he have some strange ideas about amp building, very much so. One article is here: https://reverb.com/news/trainwreck-amps-a-history-of-ken-fischers-mythic-circuitry

To clarify, I am not saying Ken is weird, wrong, or actually crazy, he just had some rather interesting quirks that beg questioning.

Bob Gjika follows several mantras of Ken's. One of those is wire direction. When you get a Gjika amplifier and cab, he supplies you with a speaker cable he builds that has an indication on one side, so that you always plug it into the amp and cabinet in the same direction every time in order for the amp and cab to sound as good as it can. I am not making this up Is he right? Maybe he is and I am the looney one.

 

[NegativeEase]

I will not say I have a first-hand account of the " stories ", but there have been a few articles I have read and other still-living friends of his ( Bob Gjika for instance who also has a belief in wire direction... ) that have accounted that he had some rather interesting quirks if you will when it came to building his amps. A few of those quirks were the ones I mentioned. I am not going to argue that two or three rather eccentric characters ( Ken, Alex and Bob ) who have pretty much made history in the guitar amplifier world are wrong or actually crazy, but they sure don't make it easy either way. Some old Dumble interviews have him expressing that electrons can survive in the vacuum of space of a tube better than they do in the crystal lattice of a transistor, in regards to an amp he built using a FET transistor for its input...

Was Ken crazy? Absolutely not. Did he have some strange ideas about amp building, very much so. One article is here: https://reverb.com/news/trainwreck-amps-a-history-of-ken-fischers-mythic-circuitry

To clarify, I am not saying Ken is weird, wrong, or actually crazy, he just had some rather interesting quirks that beg questioning.

Bob Gjika follows several mantras of Ken's. One of those is wire direction. When you get a Gjika amplifier and cab, he supplies you with a speaker cable he builds that has an indication on one side, so that you always plug it into the amp and cabinet in the same direction every time in order for the amp and cab to sound as good as it can. I am not making this up Is he right? Maybe he is and I am the looney one.

Yeah, I think you read my response different than I intended Luke -I wasnt even inferring you meant that he was crazy, thats why I said "One might take" -as in reading those things you posted (which seem to be true by the accounts of his friends) one might take that he was a strange dude, and I didnt really get that from in person conversations. -he had passion and quirks for amps, but wasn't weird by my estimation, then again I mostly hang out with only weird people so who am I to say.

 

[Phantasmagoria]

Personally I don't care what's in amp as long as it makes sounds I like..

I don't see any "beauty" in amp layouts. To me that's kinda dorky..

As long as an amp sounds good and lasts. (My Bugera 333XL Infinium is going on 15 years now and apart from 1 power tube change I've never had a single problem with it) I could'nt care less about what's in it cuz this is the bottom line for me..

Honestly the only reason I'd take a Dumble or Trainwreck over that ^^ is so I could sell them asap (Cuz frankly that's the kind of tone I'm looking for ...not dumble/trainwreck tone). I respect those amp's & builder's but if I had the $$ I'd be more interested in a Slo...It's more my thing as far as sound goes.

Not saying it's not great that guys take so much trouble laying things out neatly and all that, but a lot of old Fenders & Marshall's are complete messes inside w/ tiny underpowered tranny's and stuff & they still sound incredible (cuz..mojo + cost cutting )..