pickup noob questions/assumptions...any help/feedback appreciated

[T-800]

Ok, so the like the title says, I'm a noob when it comes to all of this stuff.

Casual research and browsing various forums, articles etc. has lead me to learn certain phrases/concepts and has caused me to be lead to believe certain things (whether correctly or incorrectly) but there are things that I still don't understand/am not 100% sure I understand properly.

I'd appreciate it if anyone with knowledge can help me out with the following questions. I'll number them to help you answer them in an organized and coherent manner.

1. Alnico vs. Ceramic: So, my understanding so far is that ceramic pickups are usually for hot/hotter pickups. I have a gibson flying v with dirty fingers plus pickups, iirc they are ceramic. Is this correct? Now I know that not ALL alnico pickups are soft, which leads to my next question...

2. Alnico 1,2,3,4,5 etc.: What differentiates the different numbered variants? Are the greater numbers hotter? IIRC there is an Alnico 8, is that the hottest of the bunch?

3. Adjustable pole pieces: Saw someone mention that a certain pickup doesn't have adjustable pole pieces. What are these and why is it desirable or conversely undesirable to have them? How are they adjusted (height wise?) and what effect does adjusting them have?

4. Overwound vs. underwound: The more you wind a pickup, the greater the volume? I ask this because when I was reading the description of the latest version of Slash's signature pickups, he mentioned that his earlier edition pickups aren't as loud as he now wants them to be (or something along those lines) and IIRC he solved this issue by...winding them more? So that increased the volume?

5. Pickup height & pickup covers: So the height of your pickups relative to the strings makes a difference in the sound? What does a lower height do and what does a higher height do? Also, am I remembering correctly when I say that I've read that uncovered pickups are hotter than covered pickups of the same model?

6. Hotter vs. Softer & clearer/articulate (in high gain) vs. dirty/distorted (in high gain): Assuming these weren't answered in the above questions, what does one do to make a pickup hotter or softer? What does one do to make a pickup clearer or dirtier (in high gain)?

 

[beaubrummels]

1. Yes Dirty Fingers are ceramic. Ceramic is typically used in higher output pickups.
2. The numbers on Alnico do not indicate their magnetic strength. My understanding is the numbers follow the order they were first introduced, which has nothing to do with how they perform.
3. Adjustable pole piece are just screws in place of slugs, typically in humbucker pickups, that allows you to adjust the pole to sense strings more evenly as needed. It's also used to affect the resulting tone, based on whether the tops of the screws are above the bobbin or sunk down into it, or by changing the length of the screw (by cutting it) or changing the metal material the screw is made out of by replacing them.
4. More winds produces more voltage. But the pickup not guaranteed to be hotter overall, because you can use a lower strength magnet to counter the winds to get a different result.
5. Yes, the height makes a difference. Moving away from the strings lessens the strength of the magnetic field around the strings, often makes it sound thinner, less output, sometime a bit brighter. Moving near the strings can emphasize the bass and reduce relative treble and increase the output. Uncovered pickups are not hotter, but can be slightly brighter.
6. I use different pickups to solve those problems

 

[Mr. B]

#6- As a general rule, hotter pickups have more winds of wire around them that lower output pickups. There are several exceptions to this and that isn't the only variable at play, but for instance, a Duncan JB would have more winds in it than a Duncan 59.

 

[Mr. B]

The best pickup education you can give yourself is to buy one ceramic Seymour Duncan Custom Humbucker along with separate alnico 5, alnico 3, alnico 4, alnico 2, alnico 8, and un-oriented alnico 5 bar magnets, and learn how to swap out the magnet types so you can hear and feel the differences. That experiment taught me what magnets I do and do not like the characteristics of better that any other experiment I have ever tried.

 

[Demanic]

The best pickup education you can give yourself is to buy one ceramic Seymour Duncan Custom Humbucker along with separate alnico 5, alnico 3, alnico 4, alnico 2, alnico 8, and un-oriented alnico 5 bar magnets, and learn how to swap out the magnet types so you can hear and feel the differences. That experiment taught me what magnets I do and do not like the characteristics of better that any other experiment I have ever tried.

I will agree that this is a good way to learn the difference.
But remember, different winds will affect the outcome also.

 

[T-800]

A question I forgot to ask:
250k pots vs 500k pots? What's the difference, what effect does each have?

 

[Mincer]

A question I forgot to ask:
250k pots vs 500k pots? What's the difference, what effect does each have?

Very generally:
250k for single coils, 500k for humbuckers. Higher pot values will let more high end through to the signal.

All of these questions have been answered on the forum multiple times. An hour with google or our search feature will reveal dozens of discussions.

 

[GuitarDoc]

#2 The numbers DO indicate strength and performance. A3 is the weakest, then A2, A4, A5, A6, and A8 is the strongest. There is also an A9 which is brighter and perhaps a bit stronger than A8. They can have a very pronounced affect on the tone...A2 has a warm tone due to increased mids and lower high frequencies, the lows are softer/less tight but can tend to also be muddier. A5 has a somewhat scooped tone (less mids) with bright highs and solid lows. A8 has solid highs (not quite as bright as A5), stronger mids, and tight lows in addition to being more powerful than the other AlNiCo magnets. Ceramics are generally the most powerful and the tightest with very strong highs (sometimes sounding a bit piercing and brittle) and solid tight lows.

#4 More winds increases resistance not necessarily the voltage.


Sorry Beau but you contradicted yourself: in #2 you said the numbers "don't indicate strength", but then in #4 you said to use "lower strength magnet" to counter the affect of higher winds (the numbers actually do indicate strength and affect on tone).

 

[beaubrummels]

Sorry Beau but you contradicted yourself: in #2 you said the numbers "don't indicate strength", but then in #4 you said to use "lower strength magnet" to counter the affect of higher winds (the numbers actually do indicate strength and affect on tone).

The Alnico numbers don't indicate strength, otherwise how do you explain that A3 is weaker than A2?

 

[Rex_Rocker]

Also, generally, the more you overwind a pickup, the darker and more mid-focused it becomes.

Sometimes it's not as apparent. Plenty of hot but bright pickups, right? But the matter of the fact is overwinding generally lowers the resonant peak down the frequency spectrum. This can be offset in some ways, but that's more often than not the case.

 

[beaubrummels]

Also, generally, the more you overwind a pickup, the darker and more mid-focused it becomes.

Sometimes it's not as apparent. Plenty of hot but bright pickups, right? But the matter of the fact is overwinding generally lowers the resonant peak down the frequency spectrum. This can be offset in some ways, but that's more often than not the case.

I think that's why a Ceramic magnet is often used in high output pickups, to counter that darkening effect of the higher winds.

 

[Rex_Rocker]

I think that's why a Ceramic magnet is often used in high output pickups, to counter that darkening effect of the higher winds.

Yep. And to maximize the output.

 

[jeremy]

maximize output, tighten the bass, and give some cut is usually why i think builders choose c8

 

[RanchManSandy]

#2 The numbers DO indicate strength and performance. A3 is the weakest, then A2, A4, A5, A6, and A8 is the strongest.

lmao, I can't believe these two sentences are next together. Earnestly, even.

This is best resource I've found on the subject:
https://nordstrandaudio.com/blogs/news/alnico-and-numbers

fwiw they list the variations of alnico power in this ascending order: 4, 3, 2, 5, 8.

 

[zionstrat]

6. Hotter vs. Softer & clearer/articulate (in high gain) vs. dirty/distorted (in high gain): Assuming these weren't answered in the above questions, what does one do to make a pickup hotter or softer? What does one do to make a pickup clearer or dirtier (in high gain)?

We've mainly focused on magnets and winds, which is a good way to start, but there are many many more factors that can interact in ways that might be unexpected.

One of the most important is the footprint of the pickup itself.. a gretch humbucker sounds a bit tighter and brighter than a Gibson humbucker simply because it uses thinner bobbins that "see" a smaller section of the string.

When you combine this with pickup depth, two similar looking pickups can be extremely different...

Best example would be a p90 and a fender jazzmaster. Although they appear to take up about the same amount of space and have similar shapes, the jazz is actually rather thin while the p90 is rather deep.

One of the impacts is the p90 is a thick mid-range pup that might have a little glistening high end if it's not wound too much... Many say it has the fatness of a humbucker.

At the other end of the spectrum, the jazz sounds quite a bit like a Stratocaster pickup with plenty of high-end and considerably less mid-range than the p90.
​

 

[T-800]

Thank you everyone, for your answers!

 

[freefrog]

fwiw they list the variations of alnico power in this ascending order: 4, 3, 2, 5, 8.

I don't want to argue about this nor do I have enough free time for that anyway... but according to my own knowledge/experience and with magnets charged in the same way, the order should be: 3, 2, 4, 5, 8.

A3 can't be magnetically stronger than any AlNiCo because if doesn't contain cobalt (reason why it's named AlNi3, BTW).

A2 contains 13% of cobalt and A5, 24%... just like A4. The difference between A4 and A5 is in the proportion of aluminium (7% in A4, 8% in A5).

IOW, A4 is metallurgically closer to A5 than to A2 or A3. So and logically, it's magnetically between A2 and A5, all other factors being equal.

I wouldn't write all this if it hadn't been checked here with lab gear (during tests for a local winder, periodically done since 2006).


Other things to consider IME / IMHO...

Incidentally and all other factors being still equal, magnetic strenght with the alloys mentioned above is conversely proportional to inductance, itself due to the amount of iron: 35% only in A8 (because of of its added 5% of titanium), 51% in A5, 52% in A4, 55% with A2, 60% with A3.

More iron = more inductance = lower pitched resonant peak = "warmer" tone, FWIW.

Conversely, Ceramic has "practically" no impact on inductance: it typically increases it of something like 1.5% only compared to an air coil...

So ceramic (ferrite) is able to give the strongest magnetic field and the lowest inductance = more power and treble, at first glance - but it can also increase the bass thx to its power: it depends on the shape of the magnetic field, itself due to the dimensions and location of magnet(s)...


To complicate a bit more the picture, magnets are not created equal : there are various kinds of ceramic for instance and as implied by Jeremy, but also various suppliers, with potentially different industrial processes.

Magnets aren't necessarily charged in the same way either: they all can be moderately or weakly magnetized.

Furthermore, the alloys used to make slugs and screw poles convey more or less the magnetism according to their carbon content...

For such reasons and for instance, a Gibson 496R hosts a short ceramic bar but doesn't seem stronger than a pickup with a long A2 if its magnetism is measured from the surface of its poles (just like Seymour did, if memory serves me)... while a Gibson 500T tested in the same way has a magnetic field 2 or 3 times stronger, because of its 3 ceramic magnets.

Enoug said for the moment: this post is already incredibly boring.


@Mincer: sorry if I appear to stir the pot. I post this only to share about things not mentioned by the OP (like the alloys used to make slugs / screws / keeper bars) or not necessarily evoked in/for themselves - like the amount of iron in AlNi(Co) alloys.

HTH.

 

[GuitarDoc]

lmao, I can't believe these two sentences are next together. Earnestly, even.

Why?
It would appear that you don't understand about magnet strengths or properties related to the popular types used in guitar pickups.

This is best resource I've found on the subject:
https://nordstrandaudio.com/blogs/news/alnico-and-numbers

fwiw they list the variations of alnico power in this ascending order: 4, 3, 2, 5, 8.

The only difference between this order and the one I posted is with the A4. But he doesn't list anything that would justify that order.
Typically , it's the iron content that is the determining factor. The higher the iron content the higher the inductance and the lower the strength.
Freefrog has listed the correct iron contents of these magnets which would put the strength of A4 (52% iron) in between A2 (55%) and A5 (51%), but definitely NOT weaker than A3 (60%).

Read Freefrog's post #17. He is about as knowledgeable and authoritative as anyone, or any other source you can find, on this subject.

 

[GuitarDoc]

The Alnico numbers don't indicate strength, otherwise how do you explain that A3 is weaker than A2?

Yes, A3 seems to be out of numerical order. I didn't invent the AlNiCo classification, but if I did I would probably have called the A3 an A1 instead. But the magnetic strength is due to it's iron content:
A3 = 60% iron
A2 = 55% iron
A4 = 52% iron
A5 = 51% iron
A6 = 49% iron
A8 = 34-35% iron
The higher the iron content the lower the strength.

 

[freefrog]

If I can add a friendly comment to the comments...

All other factors being equal, a greater amount of iron certainly increases the inductivity of magnets but when it comes to magnetic strength, I think of this amount as a consequence rather than a cause. IOW, one can see a greater proportion of iron as indicative of the absence of other elements making an alloy magnetically more efficient (cobalt, mainly, constituting 35 to 38% of A8, for example). FWIW. YMMV.